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| Sentynel | hm, out of curiosity I benchmarked a really simple primality test for all n < 1 million in cpython 2.7, pypy 1.5, rpython compiled, and pure C | 00:24 |
|---|---|---|
| Sentynel | cpython: ~4s, pypy: ~0.65s, rpython: 0.35s, C: 0.08s | 00:25 |
| Alex_Gaynor | paste of the code? | 00:26 |
| Sentynel | http://pastebin.com/zSzmQCZN | 00:27 |
| Alex_Gaynor | try increasing to 2 million :0 | 00:29 |
| Sentynel | a friend contributed a java version which runs in 0.36s | 00:30 |
| Alex_Gaynor | can you make it actually print the number of primes it sees | 00:31 |
| Alex_Gaynor | I think GCC is just removing everything as dead code | 00:31 |
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| Sentynel | it was doing that, but the time output was 0 | 00:32 |
| Sentynel | gimme a sec, I'll get it to output | 00:32 |
| Sentynel | with n=2mil: 148933 primes in 0.220000 | 00:33 |
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| Sentynel | other results with n=2mil: java: 0.28, rpython: 0.92, pypy: 1.46, cpython: 10.7 | 00:35 |
| Alex_Gaynor | err did java speed up? | 00:36 |
| kenaan | 12wlav reflex-support 11a1cbea871a80 15/pypy/module/cppyy/test/test_datatypes.py: coding convention fixes | 00:36 |
| kenaan | 12wlav reflex-support 111f7198bb9628 15/pypy/module/cppyy/test/: add (start of) new series of tests | 00:36 |
| Sentynel | yes. yes it did. | 00:36 |
| Action: Sentynel blinks | 00:36 | |
| Sentynel | that's a bit odd. | 00:36 |
| Alex_Gaynor | thats... not how computers work | 00:36 |
| Sentynel | well | 00:36 |
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| Sentynel | java is jitted too | 00:37 |
| Alex_Gaynor | yes, but it has to do the same work, AND MORE | 00:37 |
| Sentynel | lemme make that output the prime count as well.. | 00:37 |
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| Sentynel | er, we are having some java issues, bear with me.. | 00:42 |
| Sentynel | okay turns out I'm an idiot | 00:44 |
| Sentynel | revised results once translate finishes running | 00:44 |
| Action: Alex_Gaynor suspects that may be an overstatement, but waits | 00:44 | |
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| Sentynel | okay, for n=2million: C: 0.27, Java: 0.34, RPython: 0.89, PyPy: 1.75, Python: 9.83 | 00:48 |
| Sentynel | best of four runs in each case | 00:48 |
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| rguillebert | strange that rpython is slower than java | 01:23 |
| Sentynel | rguillebert: well, I don't know the specifics of rpython output code, but I'd suspect that this test hammers python's overheads with e.g. integer length checks very heavily | 01:24 |
| rguillebert | rpython is turned into C | 01:25 |
| Sentynel | yes, but obviously there are overheads | 01:25 |
| Sentynel | which, apparently, are strongly highlighted by this particular test | 01:25 |
| rguillebert | I don't think overflow is checked until you do it explicitely | 01:26 |
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| rguillebert | (from what I read a long time ago) | 01:26 |
| rguillebert | isn't checked | 01:28 |
| rguillebert | sorry | 01:28 |
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| Sentynel | there an easy way to give translate.py extra gcc args? | 01:32 |
| Sentynel | actually, higher level question | 01:33 |
| Sentynel | there an easy way to get profileable output from translate.py? | 01:33 |
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| rguillebert | If you don't use the jit then if you compile your program with the debugging symbols I guess you could profile it | 02:20 |
| Sentynel | I'm building custom rpython code here, not pypy itself | 02:26 |
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| Sentynel | hmph | 02:31 |
| Sentynel | well | 02:31 |
| Sentynel | I kludged -pg in as a gcc option | 02:31 |
| Sentynel | which worked, but provides absolutely no help whatsoever as to why it's slow, 'cos it just tells me that 97% of the time is spent in pypy_g_isPrime | 02:32 |
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| gutworth | what prime algorithm are you using? | 02:43 |
| Sentynel | gutworth: it's a very basic naive check | 02:43 |
| Sentynel | I'm not sieving or anything | 02:43 |
| Sentynel | http://pastebin.com/Jaf8XGs6 | 02:44 |
| gutworth | well, do you expect that to be fast? :) | 02:44 |
| Sentynel | I'm not expecting it to be fast | 02:45 |
| Sentynel | I'm wondering why RPython is so much slower than Java running effectively the same code | 02:45 |
| gutworth | could by anything | 02:47 |
| gutworth | could be better sqrt impl | 02:47 |
| gutworth | or clever mode | 02:47 |
| gutworth | *mod | 02:47 |
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| mwhudson | random guess, isPrime will be doing a lot of int->float promotions? | 02:51 |
| Sentynel | mwhudson: only in the results from the square root | 02:52 |
| mwhudson | it will be doing in the loop check too? | 02:52 |
| mwhudson | while i <= lim: | 02:52 |
| mwhudson | i is int, lim is float | 02:52 |
| Sentynel | oh, true, lemme fix that | 02:53 |
| Sentynel | took 0.1s off the time; it's still slower by a significant margin | 02:54 |
| mwhudson | heh | 02:56 |
| mwhudson | well, no real ideas from me i guess | 02:56 |
| mwhudson | you could look at the operation traces to see if there's any obvious stupidities | 02:56 |
| mwhudson | but i don't even remember how to do that | 02:56 |
| Sentynel | I created a modified version stripping out the sqrt(x) and just using x/2 (and reducing the number of values checked by a factor of ten to compensate for how slow that is), and there's still a significant speed drop in rpython, so I don't think sqrt is to blame | 03:00 |
| Sentynel | c: 0.32s, java: 0.37s, rpython: 1.06s | 03:01 |
| gutworth | you could always take a gander at the c code | 03:02 |
| gutworth | perhaps gcc is missing some optimization | 03:02 |
| Sentynel | I did | 03:02 |
| Sentynel | it was full of gotos | 03:02 |
| Sentynel | and opaquely named variables | 03:02 |
| gutworth | yep | 03:02 |
| Sentynel | I did have a go at working out what it was doing, but I didn't get very far | 03:03 |
| gutworth | hmm, I wonder if the problem is the mod | 03:04 |
| gutworth | some magic has to be done to get % to truncate like python in c | 03:04 |
| mwhudson | you could put assert $x > 0 in various places | 03:24 |
| mwhudson | (i think) | 03:24 |
| gutworth | I'm surprised the annotator doesn't already pick up on that | 03:31 |
| mwhudson | yeah, looks like it does | 03:32 |
| mwhudson | i don't see any sign-shifting in the c | 03:32 |
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| Sentynel | well, it's not modulo | 03:48 |
| Sentynel | I swapped uses of modulo for a custom function that just does a - b * floor (a / b) | 03:48 |
| Sentynel | which slowed everything down, but rpy's still way behind | 03:49 |
| Sentynel | c: 0.3, java: 0.35, rpy: 1.87 | 03:49 |
| Sentynel | um, I say slowed everything down | 03:49 |
| Sentynel | that's ~0.03s losses for c and java, which is probably not statistically significant | 03:50 |
| Sentynel | and doubling for rpy | 03:50 |
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| Da_Blitz | 0_0 | 07:23 |
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| arigato | hi | 07:47 |
| antocuni | hi armin | 07:51 |
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| kenaan | 12arigo mapdict-interp 1154e1837aa815 15/pypy/objspace/std/: Unsure if this is a good idea: fix (well, minimize at least) the issue of trashing the cache described in th... | 08:00 |
| kenaan | 12arigo mapdict-interp 11794d04b66c68 15/pypy/: Tweaks. Introduce a hack to avoid calling maybe_compile_and_run() too often. Tentative. | 08:00 |
| kenaan | 12arigo default 11518555c57322 15/pypy/module/cpyext/api.py: Print at least the function name. Might be useful in a translated build. | 08:00 |
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| fijal | hi | 08:08 |
| arigato | hi | 08:08 |
| Action: arigato -> uni | 08:09 | |
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| fijal | wow | 08:58 |
| fijal | chrome was checking if I'm not a robot | 08:58 |
| antocuni | uh? | 08:58 |
| antocuni | why would chrome care if you are a robot? | 08:58 |
| fijal | google cares | 08:59 |
| fijal | if you type stuff in chrome address bar it looks for it | 08:59 |
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| arigato | we manage to be 5.5x faster than CPython on this example: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/391076/ | 09:13 |
| arigato | but that's not enough | 09:13 |
| arigato | the logs clearly show that we are allocating tons of frames and doing call_assembler with tons of arguments | 09:14 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11612d38cc537e 15/js/bench/v8/v1/deltablue.js: added missing semicolons to deltablue.js | 09:15 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 112ee384ccb186 15/js/bench/v8/v1/run.js: enabled deltablue.js | 09:15 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11c63c7e2a0dec 15/js/bench/v8/v1/deltablue.js: replaced switch statement for parser | 09:15 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 116593ba306e02 15/js/bench/v8/v1/deltablue.js: removed comments for parser | 09:15 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 115e289d7f90a8 15/js/: implemented STORE_MEMBER_PREINCR | 09:15 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 118fe2e6977835 15/js/: implemented Array.prototype.pop as in ECMA-262 15.4.4.6 | 09:15 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 1101ac3b7421fe 15/js/interpreter.py: stubbed allert() | 09:15 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 1139b0dd40acfd 15/js/jscode.py: fixed wrong base class for JUMP_IF_TRUE | 09:15 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 113db08258e1e8 15/js/test/test_interp.py: moved test case | 09:15 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11da85c11c47c6 15/js/astbuilder.py: fixed whitespaces | 09:15 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 1175260dba56d9 15/js/jscode.py: extracted removal of last pop into method | 09:15 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 1190412ea44556 15/js/: implemented switch statement | 09:15 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 110e61f2a8c76a 15/js/: allow switch without default | 09:15 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11939319186301 15/js/: fix wraping for visit_case_clauses | 09:15 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 110a21415ef142 15/js/operations.py: don't use super since the translator kind of dispise it | 09:15 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 114e960ef0e8c6 15/js/: express empty default block through EmptyExpression istead of None | 09:15 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11f3e969b03ad7 15/js/bench/v8/v1/deltablue.js: backed out of c63c7e2a0dec since switch statement is available | 09:15 |
| antocuni | arigato: because we hit again the trace_limit? | 09:17 |
| arigato | no no | 09:18 |
| arigato | just because of the nested loop | 09:18 |
| antocuni | ah sure | 09:18 |
| antocuni | I overlooked it | 09:18 |
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| arigato | it's a dummy example where we should be at least 20x faster than CPython | 09:19 |
| antocuni | uhm, but why call_assembler then? | 09:19 |
| antocuni | shouldn't it just produce a bridge with jumps to the outer loop? | 09:19 |
| arigato | uh? because there are two loops | 09:19 |
| antocuni | s/with/which | 09:19 |
| arigato | the loops are not in the same function | 09:19 |
| arigato | you can't have just a bridge from the inner to the outer | 09:19 |
| arigato | the bridge from the inner loop stops at the return of g() | 09:20 |
| antocuni | because it's a recursive portal call? | 09:21 |
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| arigato | indeed, psyco is another 6.5 times faster than pypy | 09:22 |
| arigato | antocuni: well yes, if want, but it's how we have been doing things since forever now :-) | 09:23 |
| arigato | when hitting a loop in another function, we generate a call_assembler to the part of the function that we compile from the loop only | 09:24 |
| arigato | when the function returns, tracing the bridge in the inner loop must stop, | 09:25 |
| arigato | because tracing cannot follow what occurs outside the function | 09:25 |
| Action: arigato -> lunch | 09:25 | |
| antocuni | aah yes | 09:25 |
| antocuni | I'm stupid | 09:25 |
| antocuni | I forgot about that piece of the story :-) | 09:25 |
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| antocuni | bah | 09:34 |
| antocuni | by default, the files inside pypy tarballs have weird permissions | 09:34 |
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| antocuni | they are unreadable/unexecutable by group and other | 09:35 |
| antocuni | which indirectly causes issue724 | 09:36 |
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| antocuni | ah no, it's more subtle | 09:48 |
| antocuni | the problem is that, for some reason, the checkout on the buildslaves has these permissions | 09:48 |
| antocuni | (i.e., files are only readable by the user) | 09:49 |
| antocuni | and package.py simply copies those | 09:49 |
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| arigato | so a simple fix to package.py would be enough? | 10:11 |
| antocuni | yes, I'm doing it | 10:13 |
| antocuni | I suppose it's safe to set the permissions to 644 for all files, 755 for all dirs, and 755 for bin/pypy | 10:14 |
| Da_Blitz | acording to standard sysadmin practices that is correct | 10:14 |
| Da_Blitz | and an owner/group of root if installed system wide ;) | 10:15 |
| arigato | antocuni: you can also just call "chmod -R a+rX rootdir" | 10:18 |
| antocuni | uhm, should we maybe set the user/group inside the tarball to something else than buildslave/buildslave? | 10:18 |
| arigato | yes, probably | 10:19 |
| antocuni | yes, but to what? | 10:19 |
| antocuni | root? | 10:19 |
| arigato | root/root, yes | 10:19 |
| antocuni | arigato: ah, didn't know about the X flag of chmod, nice | 10:19 |
| arigato | for root/root, you can use the tar flags --owner=root --group=root | 10:20 |
| Action: antocuni --> lunch | 10:21 | |
| arigato | and maybe --numeric-owner, but I'm not sure | 10:21 |
| antocuni | well, I suppose that it's safe to assume that root is 0 anyway :-) | 10:21 |
| Da_Blitz | numeric owner would be recomended | 10:21 |
| Da_Blitz | its rare but some sytems dont have a "root" account but the main reason for doing so is if you acedentally forget to set an owner for the files | 10:22 |
| Da_Blitz | and it ends up as buildslave:buildslave which would not exsist on my system | 10:22 |
| arigato | Da_Blitz: what else do we forget? :-) | 10:23 |
| Da_Blitz | thats about all i can remeber off the top of my head, a README and INSTALL file is always apreciated | 10:23 |
| Da_Blitz | you could also chuck it in /opt/pypy if you want to follow standards (linux only) | 10:24 |
| Da_Blitz | opt is for self contained 3rd party programs, ie programs that bring thier own file structure and librarys | 10:24 |
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| kenaan | 12bivab arm-backend-2 11a602666f4257 15/pypy/translator/platform/arm.py: improve log message | 10:33 |
| kenaan | 12bivab arm-backend-2 1146dfc9c2cdfa 15/pypy/translator/c/src/debug_print.c: remove static keyword from pypy_read_timestamp to match the definition in the header file | 10:33 |
| kenaan | 12bivab arm-backend-2 11d4069c95a234 15/pypy/translator/platform/arm.py: merge | 10:33 |
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| kenaan | 12arigo mapdict-interp 11bbc85bbd9806 15/pypy/objspace/std/: Tweak even more. Results are not satisfying, so it will be backed out for now. | 10:46 |
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| Action: LarstiQ is looking for a way to ask the gc to run more often | 11:11 | |
| LarstiQ | right now pypy is getting reaped by the oom-killer | 11:11 |
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| Da_Blitz | try setting PYPY_GC_MAX to somthing like 50MB | 11:14 |
| Da_Blitz | in your enviroment | 11:14 |
| Da_Blitz | PYPY_GC_MAX=11MB pypy-c | 11:14 |
| Da_Blitz | or take a look at pypy/rpython/memory/gc/minmark.py for more enviromental varibles (documented at the top of the file) | 11:14 |
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| LarstiQ | Da_Blitz: thanks | 11:23 |
| LarstiQ | Using too much memory, aborting | 11:25 |
| LarstiQ | hmm | 11:25 |
| LarstiQ | not sure that is useful? | 11:25 |
| antocuni | LarstiQ: who prints that message? | 11:28 |
| LarstiQ | antocuni: that is a good point | 11:28 |
| antocuni | uhm, it seems it's pypy | 11:29 |
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| antocuni | LarstiQ: this means that you are setting PYPY_GC_MAX to a too low value | 11:30 |
| LarstiQ | antocuni: sure. When does it consider it too low though? | 11:30 |
| antocuni | LarstiQ: well, this depends on the program you are running | 11:31 |
| antocuni | if it needs to allocate more that PYPY_GC_MAX, then pypy cannot do it and it aborts | 11:32 |
| LarstiQ | antocuni: if that is whenever it his the max, then trading in PYPY_GC_MAX abort won't help me with the oom-killer shooting pypy down | 11:32 |
| Da_Blitz | well then it sounds like the minimum mem requiremnt of your app is larger than the amount of free ram you have left | 11:33 |
| antocuni | yes | 11:33 |
| LarstiQ | Da_Blitz: not (by a long shot afaik) on cpython though | 11:33 |
| antocuni | LarstiQ: what are you trying to run, and how much free ram do you have? | 11:33 |
| Da_Blitz | some things in pypy just chew mem | 11:33 |
| LarstiQ | so another good thing to know would be, where does all this memory go? | 11:33 |
| LarstiQ | antocuni: bzr selftest, I have 1.5GB physical ram | 11:34 |
| antocuni | and how much mem does it consume on cpython? | 11:34 |
| LarstiQ | antocuni: not sure | 11:35 |
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| LarstiQ | antocuni: can have some numbers on that in a couple of hours | 11:35 |
| antocuni | LarstiQ: it's definitely possible that pypy needs more ram than cpython: the code itself is bigger, and the JIT needs memory to do its magic | 11:36 |
| Action: LarstiQ nods | 11:36 | |
| antocuni | also, the GC runs only every now and then, so it might have a higher peak | 11:36 |
| LarstiQ | antocuni: yeah, my original question was, can I get it to run more often | 11:37 |
| LarstiQ | Alex_Gaynor: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~bzr-pqm/bzr/bzr.dev/revision/5890 seems to have taken care of the leaking open files problem | 11:37 |
| antocuni | LarstiQ: you can try to lower the value of PYPY_GC_MAJOR_COLLECT, which by default is 1.82 | 11:38 |
| LarstiQ | antocuni: ok, I'll try that after this run | 11:38 |
| Da_Blitz | that may be true but when you hit the max limit in the env varible i handed out before wont that cause a collection? | 11:39 |
| LarstiQ | Da_Blitz: with 50MB I got the abort, with 150 it seems happy so far | 11:40 |
| antocuni | Da_Blitz: when it hits the limit, it raises MemoryError; but then the program might want to allocate again, and in this case it cannot do anything else than abort | 11:41 |
| Da_Blitz | i thought the ammount of GC's was increased as you aproch the limit you put on pypy | 11:42 |
| Da_Blitz | and that if you hit that limit it forces a GC and if it cant free anything then it gives you an OOM error | 11:42 |
| antocuni | sure, that's also true | 11:42 |
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| antocuni | Da_Blitz: the abort occurs if *after* the major collection you still don't have enough memory | 11:43 |
| Da_Blitz | both lines or just the first one? | 11:43 |
| Da_Blitz | cool, then it behaves as i thought | 11:43 |
| antocuni | Da_Blitz: the best is to look at the code in minimark.py :-) | 11:44 |
| antocuni | e.g., around line 1420 | 11:44 |
| Da_Blitz | well in that case i was correct, not enough mem was allocated to the pypy instance | 11:45 |
| LarstiQ | fwiw, vsize is staying around 250MB | 11:45 |
| LarstiQ | of course, the momemt I say that... | 11:46 |
| LarstiQ | ~~ Crash in JIT! <MemoryError object at 0x8b4d364> | 11:46 |
| CIA-19 | 03cool-RR 07roundup * 10#725/Bug in zipimporting in nested packages: | 11:53 |
| CIA-19 | [new] Attached is a zip file from which CPython is able to import `my_package` and | 11:53 |
| CIA-19 | PyPy is not. | 11:53 |
| CIA-19 | You run `python` or `pypy` from the same fold ... * 14https://bugs.pypy.org/issue725 | 11:53 |
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| kenaan | 12antocuni default 1119b6a4d6992f 15/pypy/tool/release/: make sure that all the files and dirs have the right permission bits, i.e. 644 for plain files and 755 for dirs ... | 12:35 |
| kenaan | 12antocuni default 1109cf0d99b447 15/pypy/tool/release/: store 0/0 for user and group ids in the tarball, and don't store the names | 12:35 |
| CIA-19 | 03antocuni 07roundup * 10#724/pypy and virtualenv used from a different user: | 12:38 |
| CIA-19 | [resolved] the problem has nothing to do with virtualenv, but with the default permissions | 12:38 |
| CIA-19 | stored in the tarball: until today, the files were rea ... * 14https://bugs.pypy.org/issue724 | 12:38 |
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| CIA-19 | 03ojii 07roundup * 10#724/pypy and virtualenv used from a different user: | 12:44 |
| CIA-19 | [chatting] I can confirm that the chmod indeed fixes the issue for me, thanks a lot for the | 12:44 |
| CIA-19 | help * 14https://bugs.pypy.org/issue724 | 12:44 |
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| ojii | antocuni, thanks | 12:44 |
| antocuni | ojii: you're welcome | 12:44 |
| ojii | :( my tests fail on pypy | 12:47 |
| antocuni | ojii: do you have a link to the failures? | 12:48 |
| ojii | yep in a sec | 12:48 |
| Action: antocuni bets that they are related to non-deterministic gc collection | 12:48 | |
| ojii | just double check they don't fail under cpython first | 12:48 |
| antocuni | eh :-) | 12:48 |
| ojii | antocuni, http://ci.django-cms.org/job/django-nani-pypy/ | 12:50 |
| ojii | runs the tests of https://github.com/ojii/django-nani | 12:50 |
| ojii | works in cpython: http://ci.django-cms.org/job/django-nani/ | 12:51 |
| ojii | here's the traceback (in case you're not familiar with jenkins): http://ci.django-cms.org/job/django-nani-pypy/django=12,pypy=15/1/console | 12:51 |
| LarstiQ | antocuni: what would give you that idea? ;) | 12:52 |
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| antocuni | ojii: just to check that I'm interpreting jenkins correctly: only test_no_translated_fields is failing, right? | 12:52 |
| ojii | yes, i suggest you look at the last link (which is just the very verbose python output) | 12:53 |
| Da_Blitz | pypy's GC has made me use context handlers alot more :) | 12:53 |
| antocuni | ojii: sorry, the traceback doesn't ring any bell to me | 12:54 |
| antocuni | ojii: but if you manage to extract a smaller testcase from it, we would be glad to fix it :-) | 12:54 |
| antocuni | LarstiQ: by experience, a lot of programs rely (either consciously or not) on __del__s to be called as soon as an object goes out of scope; but this is not the case on pypy | 12:55 |
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| LarstiQ | Da_Blitz: same here | 12:56 |
| Action: LarstiQ nods at antocuni | 12:56 | |
| LarstiQ | antocuni: note the ; :) | 12:56 |
| ojii | antocuni, just fyi, just tested with a fairly recent nightly and same result | 12:57 |
| ojii | and I'm afraid I have no clue how to make that test simpler... I'd have to extract Django's model metaclass and my own metaclass I guess | 12:59 |
| ojii | the test method itself is trivial ;-) | 12:59 |
| Action: antocuni looks | 12:59 | |
| ojii | https://github.com/ojii/django-nani/blob/master/nani/tests/basic.py#L29 which goes to https://github.com/ojii/django-nani/blob/master/nani/models.py#L82 | 13:00 |
| ojii | https://github.com/ojii/django-nani/blob/master/nani/models.py#L92 goes to django then where it fails for some reason | 13:00 |
| LarstiQ | antocuni: at 865M rsize, hopefully almost done now.. | 13:01 |
| antocuni | ojii: how can I run just the failing test? | 13:04 |
| ojii | cd testproject | 13:04 |
| ojii | pypy manage.py test nani.DefinitionTests.test_no_translated_fields | 13:04 |
| Action: antocuni install shpinx | 13:05 | |
| ojii | hm probably should move that import into the test method so one doesn't need sphinx to run the other tests | 13:05 |
| antocuni | too late :-) | 13:05 |
| ojii | I'll do it anyway | 13:06 |
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| antocuni | ok, the problem is that it tries to set __weakref__ | 13:10 |
| antocuni | ojii: in pypy, InvalidModel.__dict__ contains also __weakref__, so it ends up inside attrs | 13:11 |
| Action: antocuni checks what happens in cpython | 13:11 | |
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| ojii | ah | 13:12 |
| ojii | I was pretty sure that this InvalidModel.__dict__ copying would cause issues | 13:12 |
| antocuni | uhm, __weakref__ is there even on cpython | 13:13 |
| ojii | del __weakref__ seems to do the trick | 13:14 |
| antocuni | indeed, the difference is that in cpython you can do InvalidModel2.__weakref__ = 'foobar' | 13:14 |
| ojii | heh | 13:14 |
| antocuni | while in pypy it is a readonly attribute | 13:14 |
| ojii | are there more things in __dict__ that are problematic? | 13:14 |
| antocuni | no clue :-) | 13:15 |
| antocuni | arigato: do we have any good reason to make __weakref__ readonly? | 13:15 |
| ojii | fair enough | 13:15 |
| LarstiQ | antocuni: adjusting PYPY_GC_MAJOR_COLLECT doesn't seem to have helped enough, at 1GB (65% of memory) in use pypy got killed again | 13:16 |
| Action: LarstiQ does a cpythong run | 13:16 | |
| LarstiQ | minus the g | 13:16 |
| antocuni | LarstiQ: you could use this script to see how much memory it's needed by cpython: https://codespeak.net/svn/user/arigo/hack/misc/memusage.py | 13:18 |
| antocuni | ah, we already have a failing skipped test about setting __weakref__ | 13:19 |
| LarstiQ | antocuni: cheers, running | 13:19 |
| Da_Blitz | ha, i was about to say, a cpythong must give an odd hit. you forget about it the moment you put it down | 13:20 |
| Da_Blitz | thats most likley the only GC related joke i will ever get to make | 13:22 |
| LarstiQ | Da_Blitz: wouldn't that be a bong? But otherwise nice joke :) | 13:22 |
| Da_Blitz | apart from "what did one GC say to the other?" | 13:22 |
| Da_Blitz | "i forget" | 13:22 |
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| ojii | green ballz http://ci.django-cms.org/job/django-nani-pypy/ | 13:49 |
| antocuni | cppl | 13:52 |
| antocuni | ops | 13:52 |
| antocuni | cool | 13:52 |
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| ronny | ojii: what is django-nani-pypy? | 13:54 |
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| ojii | ronny, django-nani is a framework for multilingual database contents in Django, those are the tests that run against pypy 1.5 (on django 1.2, 1.3 and trunk) | 14:09 |
| ojii | so now it supports python 2.5, 2.6, 2.6 and pypy 1.5 :D | 14:10 |
| ronny | ojii: ok | 14:10 |
| ronny | kind of makes sense now | 14:10 |
| ronny | nani is kind of "what?" in japanese, right? | 14:10 |
| ojii | yep | 14:10 |
| ronny | one of the few things i remember from animes with subtitles | 14:11 |
| ojii | haha | 14:11 |
| ojii | nice | 14:11 |
| kenaan | 12arigo default 11a9d654880b5b 15/pypy/: hg merge 0eedad4896ba (branch mapdict-interp): Reintroduce the fast paths killed in 8624cde59095, to avoid slo... | 14:15 |
| kenaan | 12arigo mapdict-interp 11678364e9998b 15/: close branch | 14:15 |
| kenaan | 12arigo default 11985671785e50 15/pypy/jit/backend/x86/assembler.py: Comment. | 14:15 |
| kenaan | 12arigo default 111cd8af4dff37 15/pypy/tool/release/: merge heads | 14:15 |
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| arigato | "Fatal RPython error: NotImplementedError" | 14:17 |
| exarkun | implemeeeeeeent | 14:17 |
| arigato | in UnrollOptimizer.sameop | 14:17 |
| arigato | http://paste.pocoo.org/show/391220/ | 14:17 |
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| kenaan | 12bivab arm-backed-float 1187e844f3997d 15/pypy/translator/: merge | 15:10 |
| kenaan | 12bivab arm-backed-float 11a6dab81e983c 15/pypy/jit/backend/arm/test/test_gc_integration.py: (bivab, arigo) import regalloc tests from x86 backend | 15:10 |
| kenaan | 12bivab arm-backed-float 112cccfc701168 15/pypy/jit/backend/arm/: (bivab, arigo) start implementing shadowstack support on arm backend. One test passes, yay | 15:10 |
| kenaan | 12bivab arm-backed-float 11e8b4ed2131b6 15/pypy/jit/backend/arm/codebuilder.py: (arigo, bivab) seems to only be a restriction in the Thumb instruction set and only when the PC is also in... | 15:10 |
| kenaan | 12bivab arm-backed-float 11fe00e30abd05 15/pypy/jit/backend/arm/assembler.py: (bivab, arigo) implement the malloc slowpath | 15:10 |
| Alex_Gaynor | arigato: :( btw fun case for @unroll_safe_if_const: struct.unpack | 15:11 |
| Action: LarstiQ stares at a "Fatal RPython error: LocaleError" | 15:21 | |
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| LarstiQ | it _is_ caught by except locale.Error, but then it still aborts the app? | 15:23 |
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| LarstiQ | it's the main thing holding back a clean bzr testsuite run | 15:27 |
| santagada | LarstiQ, I had problems with locale on mac os x | 15:28 |
| LarstiQ | santagada: this is Debian fwiw | 15:30 |
| santagada | LarstiQ, bzr has some really ugly hacks to make it work on os x (I think it was a problem on python2.5 on osx 10.5) | 15:30 |
| LarstiQ | santagada: if so, that might be one area to clean up now that bzr 2.4 is dropping support for older pythons | 15:32 |
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| ronny | sup LarstiQ | 15:33 |
| santagada | LarstiQ, just go to that if sys.platform == 'darwin' and rip it off :) | 15:34 |
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| LarstiQ | ronny: avoiding thesis again, almost done getting bzr testsuite complete under pypy | 15:34 |
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| LarstiQ | ronny: you? | 15:40 |
| LarstiQ | antocuni: hmm, it almost looks like memusage.py is stalling | 15:41 |
| kenaan | 12bivab arm-backed-float 114781dabc238c 15/pypy/jit/backend/arm/regalloc.py: (bivab, arigo) implement the fastpath of new_with_vtable | 15:41 |
| kenaan | 12bivab arm-backed-float 11e65892e6a1e3 15/pypy/jit/backend/arm/: (arigo, bivab) support new_array | 15:41 |
| LarstiQ | ah, or that was just tee | 15:42 |
| LarstiQ | antocuni: it seems to be an increasing sequence of numbers, the last one is: 499816 | 15:43 |
| antocuni | LarstiQ: it's the VmRSS used by the process, in Kb, sampled every second | 15:44 |
| antocuni | you need to find the highest | 15:44 |
| antocuni | this is the maximum mem needed by cpython | 15:45 |
| antocuni | assuming that the last is the highest, it's ~500 MB | 15:45 |
| LarstiQ | antocuni: sort -g memusage.log | tail -n 1, same number | 15:45 |
| exarkun | why hasn't anyone written a preload lib to actually measure brks and mmaps? | 15:45 |
| LarstiQ | antocuni: yeah, so even though pypy didn't get to the end, it took 500MB more | 15:46 |
| ronny | LarstiQ: hacking opensource stuff, avoiding study projects i guess | 15:46 |
| santagada | exarkun, I can say that I didn't because I would have no idea what to do :D | 15:46 |
| antocuni | LarstiQ: yes :-/ | 15:47 |
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| antocuni | well, it should be investigated I suppose | 15:47 |
| antocuni | anyway, I'm going afk right now, sorry | 15:47 |
| LarstiQ | np | 15:47 |
| santagada | LarstiQ, I think you or someone will have to implement MultibyteStreamWriter for pypy | 15:47 |
| Action: LarstiQ votes for someone | 15:47 | |
| santagada | IIRC these are simple pure python code | 15:48 |
| santagada | no pypy rpython hackery needed | 15:49 |
| Alex_Gaynor | well, it's whichever you want it to be | 15:49 |
| santagada | ah yep, they are a mixed module right? | 15:50 |
| Alex_Gaynor | yes | 15:50 |
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| LarstiQ | santagada: martin added thoses tests recently, I hope he can write MultibyteStreamWriter too :) | 15:54 |
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| LarstiQ | might this be an actual bug in the innards of pypy? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/391281/ | 16:01 |
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| arigato | yes | 16:01 |
| Action: LarstiQ can't step into entry_point with pdb or figure out where this comes from | 16:01 | |
| arigato | it's a "C traceback" | 16:02 |
| Action: LarstiQ nods | 16:02 | |
| LarstiQ | my attempts at writing a small testcase fail to blow up alas | 16:02 |
| arigato | waaargh | 16:03 |
| LarstiQ | let me rephrase that | 16:03 |
| LarstiQ | arigato: I'm aware it is somewhere in pypy, but it is exposed by bzr. However, if I try to do the same thing, afaict, pypy is happy. | 16:04 |
| LarstiQ | arigato: which is not a great point for handing it over to you guys | 16:04 |
| LarstiQ | presuming your waaargh was at me, I hope that unwaaarghs you | 16:05 |
| arigato | :-) | 16:05 |
| arigato | no no, the waaaargh was directed at our code base | 16:05 |
| LarstiQ | pfew :) | 16:05 |
| arigato | it seems to be _getfilesystemencoding() | 16:05 |
| arigato | it calls rlib.setlocale which might raise this RPython-level LocaleError | 16:06 |
| LarstiQ | ah, that sounds plausible | 16:06 |
| LarstiQ | arigato: yup, that is it | 16:07 |
| arigato | so it stops failing if you remove sys.getfilesystemencoding() in bzr? | 16:08 |
| arigato | or just you know it's it because you added prints before and after? | 16:09 |
| LarstiQ | arigato: it stops failing if I remove it, and 'import sys; sys.getfilesystemencoding()' standalone fails in the same way | 16:09 |
| arigato | ok | 16:10 |
| arigato | what does CPython prints? | 16:10 |
| santagada | great, this is sure a small test | 16:10 |
| arigato | on your system? | 16:10 |
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| LarstiQ | arigato: nothing | 16:10 |
| LarstiQ | LANG=bogus python -c 'import sys; sys.getfilesystemencoding()' | 16:10 |
| LarstiQ | arigato: the reason LANG=bogus is because bzr tests fallback behavior | 16:11 |
| arigato | LarstiQ: well you need "print sys.getfilesys..etc" | 16:11 |
| santagada | LANG=bogus python -c 'import sys;print sys.getfilesystemencoding()' | 16:11 |
| LarstiQ | arigato: ANSI_X3.4-1968 | 16:11 |
| LarstiQ | so, C | 16:11 |
| arigato | ah, right | 16:11 |
| arigato | uh, boguuuuus | 16:12 |
| arigato | our _getfilesystemencoding() | 16:12 |
| santagada | arigato, ANSI_X3.4-1968 for me also | 16:12 |
| arigato | saves away oldlocale = xxx | 16:12 |
| arigato | but never restores it | 16:12 |
| arigato | LarstiQ: I'm not sure I understand, still | 16:13 |
| arigato | getfilesystemencoding() on pypy does rlocale.setlocale(rlocale.LC_CTYPE, "") | 16:13 |
| arigato | LarstiQ: can you do: python -c 'import _locale; print _locale.setlocale(_locale.LC_CTYPE, "")' | 16:15 |
| arigato | and the same on pypy? | 16:15 |
| LarstiQ | arigato: en_DK.UTF-8 on both | 16:16 |
| arigato | so it works on pypy? but sys.getfilesystemencoding() fails on pypy? | 16:17 |
| LarstiQ | doh | 16:18 |
| LarstiQ | arigato: sorry, my concentration is waning | 16:18 |
| Action: LarstiQ adds the LANG=bogus in front of the _locale test | 16:18 | |
| LarstiQ | locale.Error: unsupported locale setting | 16:18 |
| LarstiQ | on python | 16:18 |
| LarstiQ | but! | 16:18 |
| LarstiQ | Error: unsupported locale setting | 16:19 |
| LarstiQ | on pypy | 16:19 |
| arigato | ok | 16:19 |
| LarstiQ | not that I know for sure why different error classes would have this effect | 16:20 |
| arigato | no, they are likely the same class, just printed differently | 16:20 |
| LarstiQ | let me try that | 16:20 |
| arigato | for me it always returns "C", btw | 16:20 |
| arigato | even with LANG=bogus | 16:20 |
| LarstiQ | arigato: catching and printing: <type 'exceptions.Error'> on pypy, <class 'locale.Error'> on python | 16:22 |
| LarstiQ | ehm | 16:22 |
| LarstiQ | print type(e) | 16:22 |
| LarstiQ | you get the idea | 16:22 |
| arigato | 'exceptions.Error' doesn't exist, it's probably a sub-bug :-/ | 16:22 |
| Action: LarstiQ prepares some dinner either way | 16:22 | |
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| Nick change: ordiclic_ -> ordiclic | 16:27 | |
| kenaan | 12arigo default 1166bb978bc47f 15/pypy/module/sys/interp_encoding.py: Fixes: - actually *restore* the saved original locale setting! - catch and ignore rlocale.LocaleError instead of ... | 16:31 |
| LarstiQ | arigato: did you manage to reproduce it? | 16:34 |
| arigato | no | 16:34 |
| LarstiQ | ok | 16:34 |
| arigato | I trust that it was buggy, but it's not a very good fix because it doesn't come with a test | 16:34 |
| Action: LarstiQ nods | 16:34 | |
| arigato | I suppose that it depends on tons of other locale settings | 16:35 |
| arigato | the LC_* env vars and your system's locale libraries and installed files, maybe | 16:35 |
| LarstiQ | arigato: perhaps. So far everyone who I've seen pypy bzr testsuite output of has had that error | 16:35 |
| Action: LarstiQ nods | 16:35 | |
| arigato | ok | 16:35 |
| LarstiQ | moment | 16:35 |
| LarstiQ | arigato: I can try this with a nightly build when it comes available | 16:37 |
| arigato | thank you | 16:38 |
| LarstiQ | santagada: or, if you can update from pypy trunk before that, can you confirm 'pypy ./bzr selftest -s bt.blackbox blackbox.test_locale.TestLocale.test_log_BOGUS' works with https://bitbucket.org/pypy/pypy/changeset/66bb978bc47f ? | 16:38 |
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| santagada | LarstiQ, translating pypy would eat all my memory with your tests | 16:41 |
| santagada | LarstiQ, after they are over (tomorrow) I can rerun the failed tests on a new nightly | 16:41 |
| santagada | LarstiQ, 3196/25k still only 11 failures | 16:42 |
| LarstiQ | santagada: wow, that is really slow | 16:43 |
| LarstiQ | santagada: ok, feel free to update the merge proposal if you have results before I get to it | 16:45 |
| LarstiQ | santagada: and thanks once again :) | 16:45 |
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| santagada | LarstiQ, I will update it with the results when ready | 16:49 |
| santagada | I don't know why it is so slow, maybe its because I'm using the computer (some database stuff) | 16:50 |
| kenaan | 12arigo default 115d7d8c44407e 15/pypy/jit/metainterp/: Test and fix. Showed up for me on recent pypy-c's in optimizeopt.unroll.sameop() that would (rarely) crash. | 16:52 |
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| ronny | re | 17:02 |
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| exarkun | I uninstalled gmp-dev and succeeded in building PyCrypto for PyPy | 17:21 |
| exarkun | But it may not work right, because when I tried to use it: | 17:21 |
| exarkun | RSA_public_decrypt failed: error:0407006A:rsa routines:RSA_padding_check_PKCS1_type_1:block type is not 01 | 17:21 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11d91e768c1625 15/js/bench/v8/v1/crypto.js: fixed semicolons in crypto.js | 17:28 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11d30cc78fa0f6 15/js/bench/v8/v1/crypto.js: fixed a parse error | 17:28 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 1192db5ca19b10 15/js/: implemented STORE_MEMBER_BITXOR | 17:28 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11e3a477e97e82 15/js/: implemented STORE_MEMBER_BITAND | 17:28 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 1141578daab3b5 15/js/: fixed continue in while loop | 17:28 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11e5843a039c67 15/js/: implemented STORE_MEMBER_BITOR | 17:28 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11bacae58940c2 15/js/: implemented STORE_BITRSH | 17:28 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11575055fa9d5c 15/js/test/test_interp.py: more cases for bit op store tests | 17:28 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 115c14672790dc 15/js/: implemented STORE_MEMBER_PREINCR | 17:28 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11e6b560437221 15/js/: allow for loops with missing setup, condition and update | 17:28 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11584e323a446d 15/js/: I guess the type of W_Null should be 'null'. At least it fixes endless recursion when trying to compare 'string' ... | 17:28 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 114b47771526e6 15/js/: added Math.random() | 17:28 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 111666384efb59 15/js/: added Math.min | 17:28 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11f0624ff75f25 15/js/: added Date.prototype.getTime() | 17:28 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11ee102cdfa79e 15/js/: implemented Math.max | 17:28 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11e6a6b4c8a563 15/js/interpreter.py: use pypy.rlib.rrandom for random | 17:28 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11f50a2a4bdda0 15/js/: implemented STORE_MEMBER_SUB | 17:28 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11ab1da4181247 15/js/bench/v8/v1/crypto.js: replaced hex literals since compiled parser is not that fond of them | 17:28 |
| kenaan | 12stepahn lang-js 11596cf2fe74bc 15/js/bench/v8/v1/run.js: add crypto.js benchmark | 17:28 |
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| lac | hello all | 18:13 |
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| gutworth | hi | 18:17 |
| Rhy0lite | Hej | 18:21 |
| Rhy0lite | Ahoj | 18:21 |
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| Rhy0lite | Namaste | 18:21 |
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| lac | hallå där Rhyolite | 18:25 |
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| Rhy0lite | lac: hur mår du i kväll? | 18:56 |
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| lac | Rhy0lite: jättetrött | 19:00 |
| ronny | oO | 19:00 |
| lac | kan du tala svenska, Rhyolite? | 19:00 |
| Rhy0lite | very little | 19:01 |
| Rhy0lite | I picked up a little when I visited a friend in Stockholm | 19:01 |
| lac | So you used 'google translate' to get 'hur mår du'? | 19:01 |
| Rhy0lite | I didn't remember it exactly | 19:02 |
| lac | it is just, idiomatically, very odd. | 19:02 |
| lac | It translates to 'how are you' | 19:03 |
| lac | but in Swedish you generally use it to talk to people who have had a bad illness, | 19:03 |
| Rhy0lite | heh | 19:03 |
| lac | got out of the hospital, etc | 19:03 |
| lac | using this to talk to stakkars about the stroke would be normal. | 19:03 |
| lac | asking it of me has the connotation that you think I must be recovering from something | 19:04 |
| lac | or you hope I am. | 19:04 |
| Rhy0lite | sorry | 19:04 |
| Rhy0lite | you interpret my comments in unusual ways | 19:04 |
| Rhy0lite | very Swedish | 19:04 |
| lac | And the business meeting i had today was very tiring --- jättetrött | 19:04 |
| lac | but hardly life-and-soul demanding | 19:05 |
| lac | :-) | 19:05 |
| lac | Swedish is a remarkably unliteral language. Illusion and Allusion play a lot of hard to define roles. | 19:05 |
| lac | which is why there are so many things that you simply, cannot, translate | 19:06 |
| lac | because information throughput is only part of the story. | 19:06 |
| lac | its a fun language to learn. | 19:06 |
| Rhy0lite | Well, my favorite thing is to ask Swedish friends to translate "seven hundred thousand seven hundred seventy seven" | 19:06 |
| Rhy0lite | sorry, seven hundred seventy seven thousand seven hundred seventy seven | 19:07 |
| lac | this is only a tongue twister for english speakers. | 19:07 |
| Rhy0lite | :-) | 19:07 |
| lac | and the fun is getting you (assuing you are one) to try to say it. | 19:07 |
| lac | for swedes and danes and norwegians its not a tongue twister at all. | 19:08 |
| Rhy0lite | Exactly. Easy for you to say :-) | 19:09 |
| lac | well, my mothertongue is english, too, so not that easy | 19:10 |
| lac | but I can do it now. | 19:10 |
| lac | with a distinct Göteborsk accent. | 19:10 |
| lac | people from stockholm say it differently. :-) | 19:10 |
| Rhy0lite | of course :-) | 19:11 |
| Rhy0lite | You're in Göteborg? | 19:13 |
| gutworth | Alex_Gaynor: any relation to David Naylor? :) | 19:13 |
| lac | Rhy0lite: absolutely in Göteborg! | 19:14 |
| lac | The 'interpret in different ways' bit, I think, is because if you chose to say something one way vs another | 19:17 |
| lac | there is a nuance of meaning there. | 19:17 |
| lac | which matters. | 19:17 |
| lac | people cut me a lot of slack as an immigrant, who might have to go for a literal rendering | 19:18 |
| lac | but Swedes get a lot of press as being emotionally unrevealing to foreigners | 19:18 |
| lac | this is because the emotional revealers are very subtle, and thus it takes a certain amount of sophistocation to get the message | 19:19 |
| lac | and if the message is unheard, the tendancy is to move on from it, not to restate it in | 19:19 |
| lac | more and more 'incapable of being missed' terms. | 19:20 |
| lac | this is something that people from cultures who are more direct about emotions havetrouble with., | 19:20 |
| lac | it's subtle. | 19:21 |
| Rhy0lite | I found Swedes very nice and helpful and accommodating | 19:21 |
| Rhy0lite | But a lot of pride and strong opinions | 19:21 |
| lac | :-) | 19:21 |
| lac | :-) :-) | 19:21 |
| lac | how about self-revealing? | 19:22 |
| Rhy0lite | depends on the topic | 19:22 |
| lac | the topic being themselves, feelings, dreams, fears etc | 19:23 |
| Rhy0lite | I didn't have a lot of deep conversations with random people | 19:23 |
| Rhy0lite | my long-time friends are fairly open | 19:23 |
| lac | all of this makes perfect sense. What I am learning after 10 years here is that | 19:24 |
| lac | a lot more revealing goes on, but in ways that its fine to ignore if you do not wish to pick up on it. | 19:24 |
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| lac | I'm studying this now. It's subtle. | 19:24 |
| Rhy0lite | I also was not speaking with my friends in Swedish | 19:24 |
| LarstiQ | lac: interesting | 19:25 |
| LarstiQ | lac: I wonder if I'll run into that | 19:25 |
| Rhy0lite | Maybe it's easier for them to express in more limited languages, like English | 19:25 |
| Action: LarstiQ is going to emigrate to Finland in july | 19:25 | |
| Rhy0lite | which has less nuance | 19:25 |
| lac | English language patterns demand an egoism which Swedish does not. | 19:25 |
| Rhy0lite | my friends certainly expressed how they felt, especially about some of my colleagues ;-) | 19:25 |
| lac | thus Swedish speakers need to be in this way more sensitive, because the 'if he wants it | 19:26 |
| lac | it's his job to let you know' | 19:26 |
| Rhy0lite | But educated Swedes are very well versed in many languages | 19:26 |
| lac | often is not there, at all. he has let you know and its YOUR job to detect it. | 19:26 |
| lac | LarstiQ: this thing is WAY MORE prevelant in Finland, of those Finns whose mother language is Swedish | 19:27 |
| lac | of those whose native language is Finnish, I do not know. | 19:27 |
| Rhy0lite | What I found most interesting about Swedes is that they are not protective of Swedish | 19:27 |
| Rhy0lite | in other words, they will drop in words from other languages to express something | 19:28 |
| Rhy0lite | dropping in whole sentences in English | 19:28 |
| lac | youi mean nationalistic? | 19:28 |
| Rhy0lite | where as someone from France always would use French upon pain of death ;-) | 19:28 |
| lac | sure, its a bastard language, stuffed full of french and german words | 19:28 |
| lac | if you want that experience go to Iceland. | 19:28 |
| LarstiQ | lac: yeah, wondering how much of it is specific to the Swedish language, and how much nordic culture in general | 19:28 |
| lac | and if you learn to speak Icelandic, you can read the sagas of the 1200s | 19:29 |
| lac | so they have a thing to protect, beyond nationalism. :-) | 19:29 |
| Rhy0lite | I had a classmate in University from Iceland. Let's not start :-) | 19:29 |
| LarstiQ | haha :) | 19:29 |
| fijal | hi | 19:29 |
| LarstiQ | hei fijal | 19:29 |
| Rhy0lite | Cze[ | 19:30 |
| lac | LarstiQ -- Finnish language comes from Estonian and Hungarian | 19:30 |
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| LarstiQ | lac: niin | 19:30 |
| Rhy0lite | welcome to the language channel | 19:30 |
| lac | not germanic at all, like Swedish and Danish and Norwegien | 19:30 |
| lac | the whole grammar and sentence ordering is different. | 19:31 |
| fijal | Rhy0lite: I don't speak polish nearly as often as I do speak english | 19:31 |
| LarstiQ | lac: I'm aware of that, my fiancee is Finnish :) | 19:31 |
| lac | its not like slavic lan gauges either. | 19:31 |
| lac | :-) | 19:31 |
| Rhy0lite | fijal: Should we speak Afrikaans? | 19:32 |
| fijal | lac: nothing is like slavic languages | 19:32 |
| fijal | Rhy0lite: how about xhosa? | 19:32 |
| Action: fijal would rather learn xhosa than afrikaans | 19:32 | |
| lac | Ok, well what I am talking about is the nuance that is carried in a Germanic language (Swedish) by historical language choices (including the use of allteration) | 19:32 |
| lac | ) | 19:32 |
| Rhy0lite | fijal: Molo! Unjani? | 19:32 |
| lac | Finnish may work that way, too, but I would expect its influences to be the Kalevala (which I just mispelled) | 19:33 |
| lac | not Norsk sagas that have made alliteration imprortant, and repetition of the same word to be shunned | 19:34 |
| LarstiQ | lac: you spelt it correctly, no worries | 19:34 |
| LarstiQ | lac: right, I see | 19:34 |
| lac | But I do not speak Finnish, beyond simple words | 19:34 |
| lac | greetings, ordering dinner | 19:34 |
| Action: LarstiQ knows of one work of Finnish poetry that is full of alliteration | 19:35 | |
| LarstiQ | and when parts of it where read, my gf didn't pick up on it | 19:36 |
| LarstiQ | so based on one piece of anecdotal evidence, I'd say no :) | 19:36 |
| lac | Where in Finland are you moving to LarstiQ? | 19:36 |
| LarstiQ | lac: Espoo | 19:37 |
| lac | :-) | 19:37 |
| lac | nice place. | 19:37 |
| Action: LarstiQ nods | 19:37 | |
| LarstiQ | not entirely sure where exactly, the current apartment is a bit too small in the long run | 19:38 |
| lac | I know Hesinki and Ventaa better | 19:39 |
| lac | and for me, of course, the best parts of Finland are where you can Kayak | 19:39 |
| lac | and this is, unfortunately inland. | 19:39 |
| lac | But my very best kayaking tour was in Åland. | 19:40 |
| xorAxAx | ... which has the tld .ax | 19:41 |
| Action: LarstiQ blinks | 19:41 | |
| LarstiQ | Åland is fit for kayaking? | 19:41 |
| LarstiQ | granted, I know little about it. Other than that they're rather independent in certain ways and my phone carrier has no coverage there ;) | 19:42 |
| exarkun | no phone coverage sounds like it probably often goes well with good kayaking | 19:43 |
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| fijal | my phone carrier didn't have coverage in the state of wyoming | 19:43 |
| LarstiQ | exarkun: and cheap prepaid sims (also no coverage outside of Finland, which Åland is technically part of) | 19:43 |
| fijal | I don't think wyoming is cool for kayaking though | 19:44 |
| LarstiQ | fijal: :) | 19:44 |
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| lac | Åland is the most wonderful place to go kayaking I have ever been in. | 19:44 |
| fijal | lac: come here :) | 19:44 |
| lac | yes, maciej, I've never been to SA, and would love to come here and try it. | 19:45 |
| lac | and I need to try new zealand, too. | 19:45 |
| lac | but the best place in the world is supposed to be Coster in the Swedish west coast. | 19:46 |
| Action: LarstiQ is afraid the Netherlands has little to offer on the kayaking front | 19:46 | |
| lac | and dear god it is wonderful. | 19:46 |
| lac | but Åland is wonderful, and _emply:_ | 19:46 |
| lac | I saw more eagles than boats every day. | 19:46 |
| lac | fills your soul with a different sort of joy. | 19:47 |
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| lac | fijal: I am reading an sf book who has a protagonist as slav named 'Matjek' | 19:53 |
| fijal | yeah, you said so | 19:53 |
| lac | should I pronounce his name like yours in my head? | 19:53 |
| fijal | that's anyway, a very poor transliteration I think :/ | 19:53 |
| fijal | I don't know, those are english people who changed spelling, no? | 19:54 |
| lac | its written by a Finn in English | 19:54 |
| fijal | so yeah, maybe he got it wrong | 19:54 |
| fijal | I can assure you there is no actual name spelled that way | 19:54 |
| lac | But are there lots of names like yours, the way you gen jon, john, johnnie and jo ? | 19:55 |
| lac | for the same person depending on how he wants his name? | 19:55 |
| fijal | maciek and maciej are the only possibly spellings | 19:55 |
| lac | are there more possible pronouncings? | 19:55 |
| fijal | if you take czech it would be slightly different (or russian) | 19:55 |
| fijal | but the one you said is clearly an english one | 19:55 |
| lac | ok then we can tentatively blame www.orionbooks.co.uk | 19:56 |
| lac | as thinking this is an easier way to learn to say your name than maciej | 19:56 |
| fijal | yeah | 19:58 |
| lac | In Polish do you get diminitives of names like you get in english like Maggie or Meg for Margaret, or in Russian Sasha for Alexandroj? | 19:58 |
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| fijal | yeah | 20:01 |
| fijal | maciej and maciek are two of those | 20:01 |
| lac | ah, so your name has a longer form? | 20:02 |
| lac | or are those 2 ways to do it the only ones there are? | 20:02 |
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| fijal | I think those are the only two used these days | 20:02 |
| fijal | you can say mako but it sounds weird | 20:02 |
| Action: lac nods | 20:02 | |
| lac | 'laura' by the way is often 'laurie' and comes from 'laurel' | 20:03 |
| lac | which I would have preferred as my name, but its very archaic. | 20:03 |
| lac | as a name. As a plant it still works. :-) | 20:03 |
| gutworth | and having laurels heaped upon you? | 20:04 |
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| lac | gutworth: comes from the same route -- the greek olympic games crowned their victors with a laurel crown | 20:05 |
| lac | made from laurel boughs | 20:05 |
| lac | from the laurel tree. | 20:05 |
| lac | the laurel tree is still named that, but if I demanded that you all called me laurel, | 20:06 |
| lac | well, you would think that I was a new-age california-inspired tree lover | 20:06 |
| lac | not somebody demanding the old form of my name. :-) | 20:07 |
| lac | on the other hand, if I was a john that demanded jonathan | 20:07 |
| lac | that would work ok. | 20:07 |
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| Rhyolite | lac: jon and john are different | 20:31 |
| Rhyolite | as are joseph and josef | 20:31 |
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| lac | Rhyolite: etymolgically, yes. Socially less so. | 20:39 |
| lac | I know 2 forner 'john's who wanted a more sophistocated name | 20:39 |
| lac | and became jonathans. abbrevated to jon | 20:40 |
| lac | made a huge difference in their lives. | 20:40 |
| Rhyolite | I am glad for them | 20:40 |
| lac | as did a 'elizabeth' who was a 'libby' growing up (correct derivation= but became a 'lisa' | 20:41 |
| Rhyolite | John and Jonathan really are two completely different names | 20:41 |
| lac | (lies-za not lee-sa) | 20:41 |
| lac | and made her career work. | 20:41 |
| Rhyolite | it is funny in some languages the nickname is longer than the formal name | 20:42 |
| lac | I think it is a class thing. | 20:42 |
| lac | in general, commoners in Europe must have short names., | 20:42 |
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| lac | what is greg price's email? | 20:45 |
| Rhyolite | lac: What about Lauren? | 20:46 |
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| Rhyolite | I don't know any Laurel's but I do know Lauren's | 20:46 |
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| lac | Lauren, historically, is the male form of Laural | 20:47 |
| lac | or Laurel | 20:47 |
| lac | but it seems that it is making the same transition that | 20:47 |
| lac | Leslie or Evelyn did | 20:47 |
| lac | and its a male name that women take now, and may be more female than male by the end of the next decade | 20:48 |
| lac | (which will be of great interest to me if immortality is just around the corner, but | 20:49 |
| lac | given that I expect to be dead in the next 40 years) | 20:49 |
| lac | I'm sort of attatched to the record I have in my past with the old name of Laura | 20:50 |
| lac | on the other hand, if I knew I had 10,000 years ahead of me | 20:50 |
| lac | well, better start now at being 'laurel' | 20:50 |
| lac | :-) | 20:51 |
| Rhyolite | Always be who you are | 20:51 |
| lac | oh god, yes,. | 20:51 |
| lac | I wasn't asking to have a new name to change me. | 20:52 |
| lac | I just hate the one I have | 20:52 |
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| lac | but never really got around to rebelling against it early enough. | 20:52 |
| lac | I like me just fine, but Laura sucks as a name. | 20:53 |
| fijal | lac: not as much as mine | 20:53 |
| fijal | people just can't remember mine | 20:53 |
| lac | I do not know what the historical significance of maciej is in the polish memory | 20:53 |
| fijal | polish are remembering just fine | 20:54 |
| fijal | :) | 20:54 |
| lac | the hostorical significance of laura in canada, is one who loves duty to the point of pointlessly dying for it | 20:54 |
| lac | its a nationalist, racist, and anti-french-candian speaking name | 20:55 |
| lac | and it was imposed on me | 20:55 |
| lac | by the government -- my parents had asked for a different one | 20:56 |
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| fijal | lac: ? | 20:56 |
| lac | what part needs explaining? | 20:56 |
| lac | or lots of them? | 20:56 |
| lac | its hard for me to know | 20:56 |
| fijal | <lac> by the government -- my parents had asked for a different one | 20:56 |
| fijal | this part | 20:57 |
| lac | aha. | 20:57 |
| fijal | yes, sorry | 20:57 |
| lac | I was born 13 weeks early., | 20:57 |
| lac | in 1962 that makes me the miracle babyt | 20:57 |
| lac | youngest, smallest, and | 20:57 |
| lac | survived anyhow. | 20:58 |
| lac | not supposed to, and supposed to be mentally defective if I lived. | 20:58 |
| lac | thus a major weapon of the catholic church against abortion | 20:58 |
| fijal | you turned out ok in my opinion :) | 20:58 |
| lac | because I lived. | 20:58 |
| lac | thank you maciej, | 20:59 |
| lac | I wonder myself somehow, | 20:59 |
| lac | at any rate, here am I being born, 13 weeks early, and the hovering catholics want me to go to heavien | 20:59 |
| lac | even if Í am doomed, so they want to baptise me, at age 30 seconds. | 21:00 |
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| lac | and the delivery-doctor is of course catholic | 21:00 |
| lac | so my immortal soul is of course of larger worry than my immediate death. | 21:01 |
| lac | but my mother had no name for me. | 21:01 |
| lac | she is in very bad shape now. | 21:01 |
| lac | so the obstatricians daughter, whose first communion was that day | 21:02 |
| lac | said some equivalent of 'let this daugher be named of my daughter, Nora' | 21:02 |
| lac | byut they heard him wrong and wrote Laura | 21:03 |
| lac | which is like Lora and one letter only differnet and sounds the same. | 21:03 |
| lac | and besides Laura is a common English speaking Canadian firwst name | 21:03 |
| fijal | bastards | 21:03 |
| lac | and Nora is not | 21:04 |
| lac | and all theyt wanted to do was búry me | 21:04 |
| lac | as I was very, very, very not expected to live. | 21:04 |
| lac | the problem is that *Laura* is the absolute name of the monarchists | 21:05 |
| lac | it is a way to indicate that you wish you were still part of the british empire | 21:05 |
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| lac | its a purely loyalist name. its the most defi itive of it. | 21:06 |
| lac | and Laura Secord is the name if | 21:06 |
| lac | of | 21:06 |
| lac | the Loyalist would be martyr. | 21:06 |
| lac | In canada she is very, very, very, very big news | 21:07 |
| lac | amoung candian conservative catholics. | 21:07 |
| lac | the problem, once my mother reagained consciousness | 21:07 |
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| lac | was that she is a fanatical devout catholic of the 'liberation theology' sort | 21:08 |
| lac | and she went and fought fascists in central anmerica | 21:08 |
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| lac | so I have the name of all she hates. | 21:09 |
| lac | and I could not get it changed until I was 18 | 21:09 |
| lac | so it was all, and still is, very unpleasant. | 21:09 |
| lac | But, dearest of gods, I am me,and not a symbol | 21:10 |
| lac | but I stiöll wish I were Laurel and not Laura | 21:10 |
| lac | I have never had a very good relationship with my'mohter. | 21:12 |
| lac | whom i admire, and respect. | 21:12 |
| lac | its just that we have never been freinds. | 21:13 |
| lac | and never can be. | 21:13 |
| fijal_ | of all things I know about you, I would blame your character before your name though :) | 21:13 |
| fijal_ | (out of the blue) | 21:13 |
| Nick change: fijal_ -> fijal | 21:13 | |
| lac | its not like we haven't tried | 21:13 |
| lac | but did my naming prevent it? I have no clue and neither has she | 21:13 |
| Rhyolite | lac: no middle name? | 21:13 |
| lac | we discuss it a lot, but not tpo any conclusion | 21:14 |
| lac | my middle name is alma | 21:14 |
| Rhyolite | I have a number of friends who prefer to be called by their middle name | 21:14 |
| lac | again, got it wrong, my mother said 'almantha' | 21:14 |
| lac | my mother thinks she might have loved me less out of duty and joy | 21:15 |
| lac | and more out of buildcing a relationship | 21:15 |
| lac | if her kid had been named as she wished | 21:15 |
| lac | and not out of other things. | 21:15 |
| lac | but then, maybe not. | 21:15 |
| lac | my mother very much is, was,. and will forever be a revolutonary | 21:16 |
| lac | the sort that goes to places like fascist south america and central emerica | 21:17 |
| lac | and trains trade unions | 21:17 |
| fijal | are there any real fascists left there even? | 21:17 |
| lac | yes, but the countries are small. | 21:17 |
| lac | and that was my childhood. | 21:18 |
| lac | but to be named laura and have the canadian gov not let her change it | 21:18 |
| lac | well, its like being called adolf | 21:18 |
| lac | and not allowed | 21:19 |
| lac | So, this is the part of the problem I have, wth my mother. | 21:19 |
| lac | I love her, I admire her, I respect her, and dear god she was the most competant person I have ever met at anypodyäs jpb | 21:20 |
| MostAwesomeDude | I *like* "Corbin". | 21:21 |
| lac | in two sorts -- a) she was the best at her job | 21:21 |
| MostAwesomeDude | But nobody can spell it correctly. | 21:21 |
| lac | as any b ody was at their own | 21:21 |
| lac | and b) she was the best at understanding anybody elses | 21:22 |
| lac | so she could fake it. | 21:22 |
| lac | MostAwesome I am not understaning youl | 21:22 |
| MostAwesomeDude | lac: My name is Corbin. I like my name. | 21:23 |
| MostAwesomeDude | My parents did not know what it means, but that's alright. | 21:23 |
| lac | Corbin - the crow? the generic plapers in french on how to estabisk a fake idenity | 21:23 |
| lac | ah | 21:23 |
| lac | MostAwesome | 21:23 |
| MostAwesomeDude | lac: Crow, raven, etc. | 21:23 |
| MostAwesomeDude | Also, you get a star for knowing what it means. | 21:23 |
| lac | very, very, very, sorry to help out your identity. | 21:24 |
| MostAwesomeDude | Try typing "most awesome dude" into Google. :3 | 21:24 |
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| lac | I have alwayd been in perfect demand that any pypy contributer get his name | 21:24 |
| lac | as whatever he or she wants | 21:25 |
| lac | so it would be (and was think) was a 'want this under some other name or MAD' | 21:25 |
| lac | but I am perfectly at one with making a new id to suit. | 21:26 |
| lac | I mean lok at glyph | 21:26 |
| lac | After some work, I know what glyph's birth certificate says. | 21:26 |
| lac | as a first name, and its not glyph unless | 21:27 |
| gutworth | matthew, I think | 21:27 |
| lac | well in the usa tey let you file a name change. | 21:27 |
| lac | but, this means nothing to me. | 21:27 |
| lac | glyph has an intenet presence of glýph, | 21:28 |
| lac | and when I wanted to hire him | 21:28 |
| lac | I wanted to hire the person that twisted matrix referred to as glyph | 21:28 |
| MostAwesomeDude | Wait, his name's not Glyph? | 21:29 |
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| fijal | his name is glyph | 21:29 |
| lac | He is lurking here, and can speak of it his own way, | 21:29 |
| lac | but he is glyph | 21:29 |
| lac | that is his name | 21:29 |
| MostAwesomeDude | lac: TBH, I don't really care what I'm called. I've been known as MAD for over a decade; I started going by it when I was 12 and I really haven't stopped. | 21:30 |
| lac | and he is my frined, | 21:30 |
| lac | and he would prefer I call him glyph which is the way he wants to be called | 21:30 |
| lac | ib this world | 21:30 |
| lac | he is glyph, as insisti8nf on it. | 21:30 |
| lac | and as his freinds call him that, as why the hell not. | 21:31 |
| lac | If I had had done this 20 years ago and demanded laurel creighton not laura | 21:31 |
| lac | everyvbody would know me as laurel | 21:31 |
| lac | .... | 21:32 |
| lac | rats, that oppoirtunity is long past. | 21:32 |
| lac | but glyph who wants to be glyph took it. | 21:32 |
| lac | way cool | 21:32 |
| lac | those of us who call him our freinds, think, wow, way cool. | 21:33 |
| lac | rather than you must damn well call yourself what your birth certificate has | 21:33 |
| lac | but, what can we do, as friends, to make sure you contune to be called however it is you want | 21:34 |
| MostAwesomeDude | Nah, I'm deeply jealous. | 21:34 |
| lac | this I think is the better function of friends. | 21:34 |
| MostAwesomeDude | I have one of the stupidest nicks I've ever seen. | 21:34 |
| lac | to support you in your deal against the world | 21:34 |
| lac | not be your vulnerability vs same. | 21:34 |
| lac | MAD -- yes, but you expected it to be temprary, | 21:35 |
| lac | but its outlasted your desiure top have it, | 21:35 |
| lac | correct? | 21:35 |
| MostAwesomeDude | Well, I was a kid, and kids don't really think things through. "Man, Bill & Ted is awesome! I should have one of their phrases as my handle!" | 21:36 |
| MostAwesomeDude | OTOH, I still think Bill & Ted is a movie to live one's life by, so. :3 | 21:36 |
| stakkars | "lac: using this to talk to stakkars about the stroke would be normal." | 21:37 |
| stakkars | hear, hear :-) | 21:37 |
| lac | Hur mår du, stakkars! | 21:37 |
| stakkars | prego? | 21:37 |
| lac | Hur mår du is Swedish for How aRE YOU? | 21:38 |
| lac | BUT, | 21:38 |
| lac | in english you ask ä | 21:38 |
| stakkars | just grepped this out of the context, dunno the popic ;-) | 21:38 |
| lac | how are you | 21:38 |
| lac | for an every day sort of thing | 21:38 |
| Rhyolite | I'll take foreign languages for $500, Alex | 21:39 |
| lac | In Swedish you ask 'how are you' | 21:39 |
| lac | for medical questions | 21:39 |
| stakkars | I am physically quite fine, with big up-and-down | 21:39 |
| lac | for how are you christian? recovering ok? | 21:39 |
| lac | this is what ' | 21:39 |
| lac | 'hur mår du' | 21:40 |
| lac | in Swedish is for | 21:40 |
| lac | getting this amojnt of detaiul | 21:40 |
| kenaan | 12wlav reflex-support 1134437975b939 15/pypy/module/cppyy/test/test_pythonify.py: coding convention fixes | 21:40 |
| kenaan | 12wlav reflex-support 11eee51741c1c1 15/pypy/module/cppyy/: initial base class support | 21:40 |
| kenaan | 12wlav reflex-support 11279a7b9dd093 15/: merge update | 21:40 |
| lac | you cannot answer with 'just fine' | 21:40 |
| lac | 'how are you' | 21:40 |
| lac | deamnds a more detailed summary than 'just fine' | 21:41 |
| lac | 'physcially fine, but with emotionally up and downs' is great answer to | 21:41 |
| lac | 'how are you christian' | 21:41 |
| stakkars | I cannot tell in public how the rest of me feels. Is that precise enough? | 21:41 |
| lac | or 'hur mår du christian' | 21:42 |
| lac | stakkars: you are being just fine now. | 21:42 |
| lac | .... | 21:42 |
| lac | but in englihs | 21:42 |
| lac | english | 21:42 |
| lac | you can say | 21:42 |
| lac | 'how are you' | 21:42 |
| lac | and you really do not care | 21:43 |
| lac | you want | 21:43 |
| lac | 'fine/ok/great'ä | 21:43 |
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| stakkars | quite ok, but need input, need progress with something, while reality puts me back. | 21:43 |
| lac | you do not want any details | 21:43 |
| lac | love you stakkars, my friend. | 21:44 |
| stakkars | I don't play that on the radio, yes :-) | 21:44 |
| lac | :-) | 21:44 |
| lac | >:-) | 21:44 |
| lac | :-) | 21:44 |
| lac | BUT stakkars EARLIER | 21:44 |
| lac | i was telling Rhy0lite | 21:45 |
| stakkars | love you, too, really | 21:45 |
| lac | that when he speaks Swedish to me as 'Hur n | 21:45 |
| lac | 'Hur mår du' | 21:45 |
| lac | which is literally 'how are you' | 21:45 |
| lac | this he must stop saying | 21:46 |
| lac | because its a question f0r you | 21:46 |
| lac | and others in hosöpital recovery | 21:46 |
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| stakkars | yes, in some countries it is a real question, which implies an insult, | 21:46 |
| lac | in swedish, how you are, is a medical question | 21:46 |
| lac | not a politeness :-) | 21:47 |
| stakkars | while in the US, people are pretty shocked if you tell then... | 21:47 |
| lac | so this is how you ended up as alog entry | 21:47 |
| stakkars | oki doki | 21:47 |
| lac | 'hur mår du' is a fine swedish question to ask stakkars. | 21:48 |
| lac | not so good to askm me, unless you think my managementmeeting will put me into the hopítal | 21:48 |
| stakkars | I tend to tell people, especially Americans, an explicit answer. This is quite funny. Most of them I'll see never again. The rest are candidates for friendship ;-) | 21:49 |
| lac | :-) | 21:50 |
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| lac | so at any rate, before you showed up stakkars, we were listening to me explain | 21:59 |
| lac | why it weas that my name was this thing that was glued onto me | 22:00 |
| lac | not something my parents chose, not one I had. | 22:00 |
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| stakkars | lac: I guess I know what you are referring to | 22:26 |
| lac | stakkars: well, its a language thing. | 22:26 |
| lac | how do you say 'how are you' in german? | 22:27 |
| lac | I think it is 'moin' | 22:28 |
| lac | in swedish 'hur mår du' is the literal translation of 'how are you' | 22:29 |
| lac | but we do not use it to greet each other in the streets. informally, | 22:29 |
| lac | we say 'Tjinea!' | 22:30 |
| lac | or 'hur står du til'? | 22:30 |
| stakkars | ' moin moin' in the North | 22:30 |
| lac | hi thee3 | 22:30 |
| lac | hi there! | 22:30 |
| lac | How is it going with you | 22:31 |
| lac | this we say in swedish | 22:31 |
| stakkars | we also say 'wo gait di dat' which is a bit more than 'how are you' | 22:31 |
| stakkars | or 'tach, wie gehts' | 22:31 |
| lac | ;.) | 22:31 |
| lac | ok Rhy0lite, who is learning swedish fromine conversation | 22:32 |
| lac | and is a freind | 22:32 |
| lac | asked me 'hur mår du till' | 22:32 |
| lac | this is grammatically perfect. | 22:33 |
| stakkars | ' 'Tag' is like 'hello' | 22:33 |
| lac | It is 'how are you' | 22:33 |
| lac | but it is socially as rude as it can be | 22:33 |
| stakkars | 'wie geht's' is like 'how are you' with a bit more the chance to get a real answer. | 22:33 |
| lac | It an ask for your physical behaviour to me | 22:33 |
| lac | which is ok if yours is in a bad shaoe | 22:34 |
| lac | so if you are in rehab, or in hospital | 22:34 |
| stakkars | 'wie geh's denn soo' is the offer to await more details, but easy to be stopped by a phrase like 'muss ja' or 'gut, und selbst?' | 22:34 |
| lac | 'hur mår du' is ok | 22:34 |
| stakkars | like 'fine, and you'? simply bouncing | 22:35 |
| lac | it is also ok if its been years since I have met you | 22:35 |
| lac | what i AM explaing here is that 'hur mår du' is | 22:36 |
| lac | not something you can, ever, anser as fine | 22:36 |
| lac | you need to answer this in many details | 22:36 |
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| lac | this uf you wanted 'fine, thanksä | 22:36 |
| lac | you must never say 'hur mår du' | 22:36 |
| lac | rather 'allting gåtr bra'? | 22:37 |
| lac | eller | 22:37 |
| stakkars | but I'm off to bed, have to get up early and I'm mentally pretty down, my wife is in the hospital, broke her neck a bit. | 22:37 |
| lac | 'det går bra' | 22:37 |
| lac | stakkars I must one you now, | 22:37 |
| lac | type the phone number now., | 22:38 |
| lac | if angela has a broken neck we need to plan new things | 22:38 |
| lac | anreai8 | 22:38 |
| lac | andrea | 22:38 |
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| stakkars | it is fixed for three months, she will get out of hospital in 3 or 4 days. | 22:39 |
| stakkars | 'halswirbel' | 22:39 |
| lac | stakkars, friend, my german id not so hot., | 22:40 |
| stakkars | second cervical vertebra | 22:40 |
| lac | my problem is are you at home, or are you at the physical therapy plce? | 22:40 |
| stakkars | she was lucky. | 22:41 |
| Action: lac nods | 22:41 | |
| stakkars | I'm at home, planning to come to EuroPython. But I must sleep now, cannot continue. I'm reachable tomorrow. | 22:41 |
| lac | ok, she is away for 3 or 4 days, minimum, correct? | 22:42 |
| lac | will you be ok at getting things to work tomorow??? | 22:42 |
| lac | you have my phonre number, christian, correct? you know where that is? | 22:42 |
| lac | +46 227 46 29 | 22:43 |
| lac | If you need me to come to germany and deal with the problems | 22:44 |
| lac | I will my friend-. | 22:44 |
| lac | love you. | 22:44 |
| lac | I k now you read the pypy logs so, my friend, if you need help, call and I will take the next train to berlin | 22:45 |
| stakkars | thank you very much. | 22:45 |
| stakkars | I'm off | 22:46 |
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