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| jkwon | hello real people | 07:20 |
| verte | -deafening silence- | 07:20 |
| jkwon | :) | 07:21 |
| jkwon | what does LL mean in LLTypeSystem? | 07:21 |
| jkwon | low-level? | 07:21 |
| jkwon | ah seems right. llvm = low level vm. | 07:22 |
| verte | yes | 07:23 |
| verte | it's the type system used when interacting with platforms with pointers and structs rather than methods and classes | 07:23 |
| jkwon | ah | 07:25 |
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| magcius | jkwon: LLTypeSystem and LLVM don't have anything to do with each other | 07:58 |
| magcius | jkwon: and LLVM isn't actually a VM, although it started out that way. It's a compiler framework. | 07:58 |
| jkwon | i know, just noting that LL is a conventional shorthand for low-level. i figured it was a convention. | 07:58 |
| jkwon | yeah, i'm not about to dive into LLVM but it looks gnarly. | 07:59 |
| jkwon | in a way pypy is a compiler framework too huh | 07:59 |
| Ademan | there's alot of overlap in the JIT area between PyPy and LLVM as best I can tell | 08:00 |
| magcius | Ademan: eh, sort of | 08:01 |
| fijal | Ademan: well, not at all | 08:01 |
| magcius | Ademan: PyPy's JIT strategy is a little different, but not anything new | 08:01 |
| fijal | they both emit assembler | 08:01 |
| fijal | but that's pretty much it | 08:01 |
| Ademan | both have their own IR | 08:01 |
| fijal | llvm is something like assembler backend | 08:01 |
| fijal | more than a jit | 08:01 |
| magcius | yep | 08:01 |
| magcius | it has the whole thing | 08:02 |
| magcius | parsing | 08:02 |
| fijal | Ademan: obviously | 08:02 |
| magcius | AST compilation and transformation | 08:02 |
| magcius | flow evaluators and anaylzers | 08:02 |
| fijal | magcius: did you read what I read, "pypy jit" notably? | 08:03 |
| magcius | fijal: hm? | 08:11 |
| magcius | fijal: the last 5 sentences were about LLVM | 08:11 |
| Ademan | fijal: if I write code try: i = space.int_w(w_i) except OperationError, e: # check for type error then do other things, in a trace can I trust it to look more like assert isinstance(w_i, W_IntObject) ? or does the exception handling ruin all of that? | 08:12 |
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| fijal | Ademan: it's more complex than that | 08:13 |
| fijal | because trace depends what actually w_i is | 08:13 |
| fijal | if it's int | 08:13 |
| fijal | then it'll be more like guard_class_nonnull(w_i) | 08:13 |
| Ademan | fijal: right, but I just want to know that the exception handling isn't aborting the JIT or something annoying like that | 08:14 |
| fijal | no | 08:14 |
| fijal | what made you think that? | 08:14 |
| Ademan | fijal: I figured it wasn't the case, but I remembered hearing about exceptions (maybe only applevel) aborting the JIT | 08:15 |
| Ademan | maybe I heard wrong anyways | 08:15 |
| fijal | I think it's safe to assume you did | 08:15 |
| Ademan | heh | 08:15 |
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| antocuni | fijal: do you have any idea why speed.pypy.org shows data only until few days ago? | 09:14 |
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| fijal | antocuni: http://buildbot.pypy.org/waterfall | 09:40 |
| fijal | yes | 09:40 |
| fijal | because 64bit jit (I presume) merge introduce assembler crash which makes benchmarks unable to run | 09:40 |
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| mvt | am i supposed to be able to translate pypy on 64 bit since the recent merge? | 09:53 |
| antocuni_ | mvt: I think so, but AFAIK you still cannot use our fast GC | 09:55 |
| antocuni_ | so, performance will be suboptimal | 09:55 |
| mvt | http://paste.pocoo.org/show/246207/ | 09:56 |
| Action: antocuni_ tries on his pc | 09:57 | |
| antocuni_ | mvt: no clue, it seems to work for me | 09:58 |
| antocuni_ | mvt: which kind of system do you have? | 09:58 |
| fijal | mvt: didn't you run out of RAM? | 10:00 |
| antocuni_ | fijal: no, note that the MemoryError comes from alloc(4096) in detect_sse2 | 10:00 |
| mvt | hm mac osx core2duo | 10:00 |
| fijal | hm | 10:00 |
| fijal | it seems mmap didn't work | 10:01 |
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| antocuni_ | mvt: could you try to apply this diff and see what error do you get? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/246213/ | 10:06 |
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| mvt | sure antocuni | 10:28 |
| mvt | antocuni: 12 Cannot allocate memory | 10:30 |
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| antocuni | mvt: I'm looking at this page: http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/documentation/Darwin/Reference/ManPages/man2/mmap.2.html | 10:42 |
| antocuni | in particular, the ENOMEM section | 10:42 |
| antocuni | it's possible that it fails for you because of one of this cases, not sure which | 10:43 |
| antocuni | well, it really seems that the system is telling you that you don't have enough memory, although I agree that it's a bit weird | 10:47 |
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| antocuni | not to have 4 MB, I mean | 10:47 |
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| mvt | antocuni: yeah hehe, i have 3gb so that should work | 11:14 |
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| fijal | jcreigh: hey | 12:55 |
| jcreigh | hey | 12:56 |
| fijal | how's bug hunting? | 12:56 |
| jcreigh | eh, I didn't have a handy pypy-c translated, so I was working on other stuff last night while one built. So I'm just starting on the zlib thing this morning. | 13:01 |
| fijal | k | 13:01 |
| fijal | I could have written you a test, you know :) | 13:01 |
| jcreigh | oh, great, the specific failure mode varies randomly | 13:17 |
| fijal | yeah | 13:18 |
| fijal | but it generally boils down to the same thing | 13:18 |
| fijal | the only difference is whether ValueError is caught and reraised at applevel or not | 13:19 |
| fijal | what you should write is a test that calls function with doubles as args | 13:19 |
| fijal | and pass there jit-time constants (but not compile-time constants obviously) | 13:19 |
| fijal | jcreigh: sorry, I should have told you the amount of debugging I did :) | 13:21 |
| jcreigh | heh heh | 13:21 |
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| Topic changed on #pypy by fijal!fijal@41-134-41-226.dsl.mweb.co.za: PyPy, the flexible snake (IRC logs: http://www.tismer.com/pypy/irc-logs/pypy/?C=M;O=D ) | "we used to have a mess with an obscure interface, now we have mess here and obscure interface there. progress" Samuele Pedroni on pypy sprint | 17:27 | |
| Topic changed on #pypy by fijal!fijal@41-134-41-226.dsl.mweb.co.za: PyPy, the flexible snake (IRC logs: http://www.tismer.com/pypy/irc-logs/pypy/?C=M;O=D ) | "we used to have a mess with an obscure interface, now we have mess here and obscure interface there. progress" pedronis on a pypy sprint | 17:28 | |
| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: eh, there's a sprint? | 17:32 |
| fijal | no | 17:33 |
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| kenaan | 03hakanardo 10r7648614 pypy/branch/interplevel-array/pypy 07M(assembler.py test_pypy_c.py itertype.py): pypy-c tests ... | 18:04 |
| fijal | oh right | 18:05 |
| fijal | I can look into your branch | 18:05 |
| fijal | but I'll refrain from merging until some failures on trunk are fixed | 18:05 |
| hakanardo | ok | 18:06 |
| fijal | makes sense? | 18:07 |
| hakanardo | it sure doess | 18:07 |
| fijal | did you run coverage btw? | 18:08 |
| hakanardo | no, whats that? | 18:08 |
| fijal | shows you how your test run covers your code | 18:09 |
| fijal | pytest-coverage (google) | 18:09 |
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| hakanardo | 96% coverage on interp_array.py | 18:32 |
| fijal | great! | 18:32 |
| exarkun | pretty good | 18:32 |
| fijal | Alex_Gaynor: upload your slides somewhere | 18:32 |
| fijal | for a guy who have just learned what a coverage is, that's pretty impressive | 18:33 |
| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: I did :) http://www.scribd.com/doc/35240506/Making-Python-Fast-PyPy-and-Unladen-Swallow | 18:33 |
| fijal | yeah | 18:33 |
| fijal | but to a place where I can downlaod them | 18:33 |
| fijal | (a request on pypy blog) | 18:33 |
| fijal | antocuni: we should implement different so naming than cpython | 18:33 |
| antocuni | have we ever tried to run pytest-coverage on the whole pypy? | 18:33 |
| antocuni | for cpyext you mean? | 18:33 |
| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: There's a download button on the right, would you like me to put it on my own server or something? | 18:33 |
| fijal | Alex_Gaynor: I would like you to point that guy to this button | 18:34 |
| fijal | antocuni: yes | 18:34 |
| fijal | antocuni: there was a thread on python-dev about that | 18:34 |
| antocuni | ah, I don't follow python-dev | 18:34 |
| antocuni | but yes, it's a good idea | 18:34 |
| fijal | if mytype.typecode == 'u': | 18:35 |
| fijal | myiter = space.unpackiterable | 18:35 |
| fijal | else: | 18:35 |
| fijal | myiter = space.listview | 18:35 |
| fijal | that's nonsense | 18:35 |
| fijal | space.listview would do | 18:35 |
| fijal | besides, it's not technically correct | 18:36 |
| fijal | (I can write code that makes this explode) | 18:36 |
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| fijal | by having a len that lies | 18:37 |
| fijal | and resizing it during the iteration | 18:37 |
| fijal | I think the latter is enough | 18:37 |
| fijal | ah | 18:37 |
| fijal | I see | 18:37 |
| fijal | ok sorry sorry | 18:37 |
| fijal | you can't call arbitrary code there | 18:37 |
| hakanardo | I'm afraid you lost me... | 18:38 |
| Alex_Gaynor | hakanardo: within space.listview you should never callback to arbitrary python code is the idea I think | 18:39 |
| fijal | I lost myself in the first place | 18:39 |
| fijal | it's correct as far as I know :) | 18:39 |
| fijal | hakanardo: can you remove all the interp_* that are not used? | 18:40 |
| fijal | is app_array ever used? | 18:40 |
| hakanardo | sure | 18:40 |
| hakanardo | no | 18:40 |
| hakanardo | it's only interp_array.py and __init__.py thats used now | 18:41 |
| fijal | also, benchmarks should probably go somewhere else | 18:41 |
| fijal | remove the rest :) | 18:41 |
| hakanardo | where do you want the benchmarks? | 18:41 |
| fijal | tests are not pep8 | 18:41 |
| fijal | depends how useful they're | 18:41 |
| fijal | but not in the pypy tree | 18:41 |
| fijal | they can be in main pypy benchmarks, if you think they're generally useful | 18:42 |
| fijal | otherwise I would suggest to park them in your user directory | 18:42 |
| hakanardo | na, they ar probably too simple | 18:42 |
| fijal | well, if you really want, you can have module/array/benchmark directory | 18:42 |
| fijal | with README that explains what they do | 18:42 |
| hakanardo | ok, that makes sens | 18:42 |
| fijal | would be good to strip platform-specific tests | 18:43 |
| fijal | (like /dev/zero is unlikely to be on windows) | 18:44 |
| fijal | by say using py.test.ensuretemp | 18:44 |
| fijal | or udir | 18:44 |
| fijal | or something | 18:44 |
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| fijal | try: | 18:45 |
| fijal | a[1:3]=[5,6] | 18:45 |
| fijal | assert False | 18:45 |
| fijal | except TypeError: | 18:45 |
| fijal | pass | 18:45 |
| fijal | there is py.test.raises | 18:45 |
| fijal | or simply raises if it's an apptest | 18:46 |
| hakanardo | Are you on the head of the branch, I've pep8:ifyed those lines? | 18:47 |
| fijal | ups, no | 18:48 |
| fijal | indeed :) | 18:48 |
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| magcius | Alex_Gaynor: woah, how does that globals/builtins work? | 19:03 |
| magcius | Alex_Gaynor: on your slides. | 19:03 |
| Alex_Gaynor | magcius: because you reassign len in global scope, so it impacts everything in the module | 19:03 |
| magcius | Alex_Gaynor: I didn't know Python that was crazy. | 19:03 |
| magcius | Alex_Gaynor: yeah, but, but | 19:04 |
| magcius | Alex_Gaynor: isn't the global scope saved when you enter a function like f? | 19:04 |
| magcius | like wow | 19:04 |
| Alex_Gaynor | A reference to the globals is saved on function creation, but obvious the globals are mutable. | 19:04 |
| magcius | Alex_Gaynor: how many people were confused/amazed at the slide on that | 19:04 |
| magcius | Alex_Gaynor: also, can I hide that frickin bouncy bar at the bottom? | 19:05 |
| Alex_Gaynor | A decent amount, I think people intellectually know you can do that stuff, but don't think about it because you'd be crazy to do something like this. | 19:05 |
| Alex_Gaynor | magcius: there's a download button on the right if the scribd UI is bad :/ | 19:05 |
| magcius | Alex_Gaynor: how do I stop it from bouncing up and down? | 19:06 |
| magcius | aha | 19:06 |
| magcius | the switch on the right | 19:06 |
| magcius | Alex_Gaynor: it's also confusing to the eye because the "for" fooled me | 19:06 |
| magcius | Alex_Gaynor: I thought I was in a different scope: "uh, why isn't a global len needed?" | 19:06 |
| Hodgestar | Alex_Gaynor: Is this just a "def f(a): return len(a) ; def len(a): return 'foo'" sort of thing? | 19:07 |
| magcius | Hodgestar: yes, except more crazy | 19:07 |
| Alex_Gaynor | Hodgestar: sort of, except compounded by changing it during a running generator: def foo(a): for i in a: yield len(i) | 19:07 |
| Hodgestar | Oh, I see. Modifying globals while the generator is executing. | 19:08 |
| magcius | Hodgestar: http://codepad.org/T2u0TxGq | 19:10 |
| magcius | Alex_Gaynor: uh, tracing JIT isn't looking for loops | 19:10 |
| magcius | Alex_Gaynor: that's a standard JIT, AFAIK | 19:10 |
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| magcius | Alex_Gaynor: a tracing JIT takes traces of paths (a common path of functions in code, for let's say 5 functions in the call stack), and emits machine code for all those functions in one pass | 19:11 |
| Alex_Gaynor | http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2009/03/applying-tracing-jit-to-interpreter.html | 19:11 |
| Hodgestar | The result isn't that surprising. Now I'm wondering if it is possible to write a decorator that avoids it and what happens when you decorate a generator. | 19:12 |
| magcius | Alex_Gaynor: TraceMonkey is different then | 19:12 |
| magcius | Alex_Gaynor: because Trace Trees are different | 19:12 |
| Alex_Gaynor | Hodgestar: http://code.activestate.com/recipes/277940-decorator-for-bindingconstants-at-compile-time/?in=user-178123 | 19:13 |
| magcius | Alex_Gaynor: "Similar to outer loops, method calls are inlined into a trace tree | 19:13 |
| magcius | instead of appearing as an actual method invocation instruction. | 19:13 |
| magcius | Whereas a static method invocation has exactly one target method | 19:13 |
| magcius | that will be inlined, virtual and interface method dispatches can | 19:13 |
| magcius | invoke different methods at runtime, depending on the actual type | 19:13 |
| magcius | of the receiver object. | 19:13 |
| magcius | whoops | 19:13 |
| magcius | Alex_Gaynor: the technique is completely different than Dynamo: http://www.ics.uci.edu/%7Efranz/Site/pubs-pdf/ICS-TR-06-16.pdf | 19:14 |
| magcius | Alex_Gaynor: well, not completely different, but the UV Irvine technique is a pretty complicated modification/extension of Dynamo such that it can't really be called the same method | 19:15 |
| fijal | magcius: it's not | 19:17 |
| fijal | trace trees also close at some point | 19:17 |
| magcius | fijal: ehh | 19:17 |
| Hodgestar | Alex_Gaynor: That does quite a bit more than I was imaging but it's pretty cool. | 19:17 |
| Alex_Gaynor | Hodgestar: raymond is a pretty smart guy :) | 19:18 |
| magcius | fijal: does PyPy use a trace-tree based method? | 19:22 |
| fijal | yes | 19:22 |
| Alex_Gaynor | well we don't ever compile a tree though | 19:23 |
| Alex_Gaynor | we use bridges instead | 19:23 |
| fijal | and bridges are what? | 19:23 |
| antocuni | magcius: if you are interested in how the pypy jit works, you might find useful to read chapters 5 and 6 of my thesis: http://codespeak.net/svn/user/antocuni/phd/thesis/thesis.pdf | 19:23 |
| fijal | how they're different? | 19:23 |
| fijal | there is also a place on the website that explain | 19:23 |
| fijal | s | 19:23 |
| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: well a bridge cna be recompiled without needing to touch the loop it lives in | 19:24 |
| antocuni | fijal: I think that the terminology found in the literature is "trace stitching" for what pypy does, and "trace tree" when you recompile the whole tree every time you add a branch | 19:24 |
| Alex_Gaynor | antocuni explained it much better than me :) | 19:24 |
| antocuni | well, I discovered this terminology only recently, i.e. after writing my thesis :-) | 19:25 |
| magcius | I just thought the big speedup with TraceMonkey/UV Irvine was that several methods were inlined and compiled into machine code when that specific path becomes "hot" | 19:25 |
| fijal | in our case compiling and tracing is kind of expensive | 19:26 |
| fijal | so O(n^2) would kill us | 19:26 |
| Alex_Gaynor | O(n^2) what are we talking about? | 19:26 |
| fijal | if you recompile the whole tree each time you have a new trace, it's O(n^2) | 19:27 |
| fijal | on number of operations | 19:27 |
| Alex_Gaynor | ah yeah | 19:27 |
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| kenaan | 03hakanardo 10r7648814 pypy/branch/interplevel-array/pypy/module/array 05A(/benchmark/ Makefile README intimg.c intimgtst.c intimgtst.py loop.c loop.py sum.c sumtst.c sumtst.py) 06D(app_array.py interp_array_multiclass.py interp_ar ... | 19:37 |
| fijal | Alex_Gaynor: anyway, not sure about the JVM part, but note that most JS benchmarks is ridiculously simple | 19:39 |
| fijal | sun spider is pretty much a joke | 19:39 |
| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: what are we talking about? | 19:39 |
| fijal | about recompilation | 19:40 |
| Alex_Gaynor | ah | 19:40 |
| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: dromaeo is the only JS benchmark I use | 19:43 |
| fijal | I don't care what do *you* use | 19:43 |
| Alex_Gaynor | :) | 19:43 |
| fijal | I care what people writing blogs use | 19:43 |
| Alex_Gaynor | Well dromaeo aggregated sunspider, v8, and added it's own | 19:43 |
| Alex_Gaynor | Anyway, it's not like I'm writing a JS VM | 19:44 |
| fijal | that's still pretty basic | 19:44 |
| fijal | (like it does not cover recompilation time at all) | 19:44 |
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| fijal | I'm just saying that things like translate.py are really *hard* benchmarks | 19:45 |
| fijal | even things like chaos are relatively hard | 19:45 |
| fijal | or telco | 19:45 |
| Alex_Gaynor | yeah, translate.py is a stressful benchmark | 19:45 |
| Alex_Gaynor | at least it doesn't have regex :D | 19:46 |
| kenaan | 03jcreigh 10r7649014 07M(pypy/trunk/pypy/jit/backend/x86/test/test_runner.py): add test for calling function from JIT with ConstFloat arguments ... | 19:50 |
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| kenaan | 03jcreigh 10r7649114 pypy/trunk/pypy/jit/backend/x86 07M(assembler.py regalloc.py regloc.py): fix for r76490, calling functions in JIT with const float arguments. (somewhat ugly) ... | 19:53 |
| kenaan | 03hakanardo 10r7649214 07M(pypy/branch/interplevel-array/pypy/module/array/test/test_array.py): try except => raises ... | 19:54 |
| ronny | hum hum, thanks for the ssh - i actually needed a python2.3 - ssh codespeak.net has it | 19:55 |
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| kenaan | 03jcreigh 10r7649314 pypy/trunk/pypy/jit/backend/x86 07M(assembler.py regalloc.py regloc.py): revert r76491 (grr, doesn't translate) ... | 20:27 |
| jcreigh | bloody hell I'm bad at this. :-( | 20:27 |
| jcreigh | or maybe I could externalize the blame on rpython... | 20:27 |
| Ademan | jcreigh: :-p just look at the language spec... oh wait :-p | 20:33 |
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| Alex_Gaynor | jcreigh, for when you return (if you read logs): the commit you reverted appears to have translated fine, and fixed the zlib and random issues | 21:40 |
| Alex_Gaynor | http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-32/builds/353 | 21:40 |
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| kenaan | 03getxsick 10r7649414 07M(pypy/branch/fast-ctypes/pypy/rlib/rjitffi.py): add cache argument to CDLL.get ... | 22:13 |
| kenaan | 03getxsick 10r7649514 07M(pypy/branch/fast-ctypes/pypy/rlib/test/test_rjitffi.py): use cache in tests ... | 22:14 |
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| kenaan | 03getxsick 10r7649614 07M(pypy/branch/fast-ctypes/pypy/rlib/rjitffi.py): use bargs as a local list ... | 23:10 |
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| -ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)- [#stackless] Welcome to #stackless. This channel is for the discussion of matters relating to Stackless Python. Remember that others in this channel may not be in the same timezone as you, so stick around for an answer (even if only in your channel history) if you ask a question. The mailing list is also recommended as being a faster place to get help (http://www.stackless.com/mailman/listinfo/stackless). | 23:15 | |
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