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| kenaan | 03fijal 10r7123514 07M(pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/pypyspeed/talk.txt): A bit of progress, probably last checkin before I start real slides ... | 03:56 |
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| kenaan | 03fijal 10r7123614 pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/keynote 07M(talk.pdf talk.tex): typos and minor fixes ... | 04:16 |
| gutworth | fijal: you say "for example" too much :) | 04:20 |
| fijal | gutworth: feel like fixing that? | 04:21 |
| fijal | and hi | 04:22 |
| gutworth | hi | 04:22 |
| kenaan | 03benjamin 10r7123714 07M(pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/crossinterp/talk.txt): remove a little awkwardness ... | 04:24 |
| fijal | gutworth: that's samuele | 04:24 |
| gutworth | ah, sorry then | 04:27 |
| fijal | that' | 04:31 |
| fijal | s my talk though | 04:31 |
| fijal | too bad you can't make it to pycon | 04:32 |
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| kenaan | 03fijal 10r7123814 pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010 05A(/common/ beamerouterthememy.sty beamerthemeWarsaw.sty merlinux-logo.png pypy-logo.png beamerouterthememy.sty beamerthemeWarsaw.sty) 06D(beamerouterthememy.sty beamerthemeWarsaw.st ... | 04:46 |
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| fijal | Alex_Gaynor: hi | 05:43 |
| Alex_Gaynor | hey | 05:43 |
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| kenaan | 03fijal 10r7123914 pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/pypyspeed 05A(beamerouterthememy.sty beamerthemeWarsaw.sty talk.pdf talk.tex): start working on talk ... | 05:50 |
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| antocuni | hi | 09:54 |
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| antocuni | so, who makes me a short summary of what happened in pypy last week? :-) | 11:55 |
| arigato | hi antonio. I would be glad to hear it too :-) | 12:00 |
| Action: arigato fights a bit with Psyco to support the new bytecodes of Python 2.7 | 12:01 | |
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| arigato | they added stuff like POP_JUMP_IF_FALSE which is a bit messy | 12:02 |
| arigato | because there are so many semi-implicit constrains in psyco | 12:02 |
| arigato | I'm busy trying to remember them all :-( | 12:02 |
| pedronis | antocuni: not much, some pycon preparations, cfbolz at some point maybe before merged oprofile support | 12:03 |
| antocuni | pedronis: ok, thanks | 12:03 |
| antocuni | I see that html5lib is much faster now | 12:04 |
| antocuni | what happened? | 12:04 |
| antocuni | hi armin! | 12:04 |
| pedronis | cfbolz rewrote some codecs at interp level | 12:04 |
| antocuni | ah, nice | 12:04 |
| pedronis | we looked a bit into generators as well, some ideas but nothing on trunk yet | 12:04 |
| pedronis | I arigato is still trying to debug some crashes | 12:05 |
| pedronis | s/I arigato/I think arigato/ | 12:05 |
| arigato | yes :-( | 12:06 |
| pedronis | I'm leaving tomorrow for pycon so not much going on here | 12:06 |
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| pedronis | cfbolz: hi | 12:49 |
| cfbolz | hi | 12:50 |
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| Action: tav waves anyone around ? | 15:30 | |
| cfbolz | someone always is | 15:31 |
| tav | got a stable: how stable would a non-jit'd pypy interpreter running in sandboxed "mode" be? i.e. will it run w/o crashing? | 15:31 |
| tav | cfbolz =) | 15:31 |
| tav | s/stable:/question:/ | 15:31 |
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| cfbolz | non-jitted is very stable by now | 15:32 |
| tav | cool | 15:33 |
| tav | know how importing works when sandboxed? how do modules get imported when the interpreter doesn't have access to the filesystem ? | 15:33 |
| cfbolz | you can fake a file-system | 15:34 |
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| fijal | hi | 16:18 |
| pedronis | hi | 16:18 |
| fijal | pedronis: when do you fly? | 16:18 |
| pedronis | tomorrow | 16:18 |
| arigato | hi | 16:19 |
| fijal | pedronis: thanks for cross interp slides | 16:21 |
| fijal | I think this is mostly it | 16:21 |
| fijal | pedronis: is "inter peter" something real? | 16:23 |
| fijal | or just a typo? | 16:23 |
| pedronis | oops typo | 16:24 |
| kenaan | 03fijal 10r7124214 07M(pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/vmsummit/talk.txt): my affiliation & typo ... | 16:26 |
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| pedronis | fijal: the crossinterp ones needs to be transformed into a real slide format | 16:27 |
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| fijal | pedronis: yeah | 16:27 |
| fijal | pedronis: I'm working on pypyspeed one now | 16:27 |
| fijal | but will do that | 16:27 |
| pedronis | ok | 16:27 |
| pedronis | I will soonish leave to go home finish packing | 16:27 |
| fijal | sure | 16:28 |
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| pedronis | fijal: seems we should try to be at the sync meeting thurs | 16:32 |
| pedronis | (release planning again) | 16:32 |
| fijal | fine | 16:33 |
| pedronis | it's going to be during the lang summit, no? | 16:33 |
| fijal | yes | 16:33 |
| fijal | holger won't be there | 16:33 |
| fijal | since he has a tutorial | 16:33 |
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| pedronis | well he is going to be traveling around during the release window anyway, no | 16:34 |
| pedronis | isn't he back properly only in april? | 16:34 |
| fijal | I don't know | 16:35 |
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| fijal | pedronis: did you see my mail? | 16:51 |
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| pedronis | fijal: yes | 16:55 |
| fijal | any thoughts? | 16:55 |
| pedronis | I don't know, the problem with trunk is that is of course of moving target | 16:55 |
| fijal | I sort of don't believe myself | 16:55 |
| fijal | I might have local changes or something | 16:56 |
| fijal | even though I think I checked | 16:56 |
| fijal | so would be good if someone can reproduce it | 16:56 |
| fijal | well, but I guess it's not for today | 16:56 |
| pedronis | the wait to have assembler stuff? | 16:56 |
| pedronis | cfbolz started working a bit on that branch | 16:56 |
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| fijal | er | 16:57 |
| fijal | parse error | 16:57 |
| fijal | "the wait to have assembler stuff?" | 16:57 |
| fijal | what do you mean? | 16:57 |
| fijal | you mean abort_no_asm branch? | 16:57 |
| pedronis | yes | 16:57 |
| fijal | how is it twisted-related? | 16:58 |
| pedronis | I don't know | 16:58 |
| pedronis | just wondering if you had that change still in your working copy | 16:58 |
| arigato | (sorry, are you talking about a mail to samuele only or is there an issue with my mailbox?) | 16:59 |
| pedronis | it's a mail only to me | 16:59 |
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| pedronis | though is really a general question | 16:59 |
| pedronis | whether to swith the twisted benchmarks to twisted trunk | 16:59 |
| pedronis | because fijal says they are faster with the newer code | 16:59 |
| fijal | arigato: the issue being that on twisted benchmark (twisted_web) I observe speedups on trunk | 17:00 |
| pedronis | what kind of speedups? | 17:00 |
| pedronis | that's relevant too | 17:00 |
| fijal | about 2x | 17:02 |
| fijal | although I think we should investigate this first | 17:02 |
| fijal | or at least someone should be able to reproduce that | 17:02 |
| arigato | btw, would you two be around in a Leysin sprint after Easter? | 17:02 |
| pedronis | when is easter again? | 17:03 |
| Action: fijal did not know the sprint date was decided | 17:03 | |
| fijal | arigato: no | 17:03 |
| arigato | "I can't answer yet" is fine :-) | 17:03 |
| arigato | pedronis: that would be e.g. 10-18 april | 17:03 |
| pedronis | very unlikely at this point | 17:03 |
| fijal | arigato: I could be beginning of may, probably | 17:04 |
| arigato | ok, then I suppose I need to ask the next question: does it make any sense at all to continue organizing sprints or are we all kind of dropping the style? | 17:04 |
| pedronis | I don't know, I fear a will have more things to say after I'm back from my trips | 17:05 |
| pedronis | I suppose it's a really a question for a much larger group | 17:07 |
| pedronis | though | 17:07 |
| arigato | ok, sorry about that | 17:08 |
| fijal | arigato: you can also view that as a "series of personal questions" | 17:08 |
| fijal | and I don't know answer to any of those | 17:09 |
| arigato | I'm planning to come back to Gtbg for one month until Easter | 17:10 |
| arigato | (just so you know) | 17:10 |
| fijal | arigato: what do you do next? | 17:11 |
| fijal | (if you know) | 17:11 |
| arigato | well, back in Switzerland for Easter anyway, | 17:12 |
| arigato | then probably a trip to Düsseldorf, but after that it's likely to be Gtbg again | 17:13 |
| arigato | that also means that I'm open to other suggestions | 17:15 |
| arigato | :-) | 17:15 |
| fijal | heh, ok :-) | 17:15 |
| fijal | arigato: from my side, I'm likely to stay in the US till end April | 17:16 |
| fijal | and since I did not decide what to do with my life afterwards, I won't make any promises | 17:16 |
| arigato | well, same here, really | 17:16 |
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| pedronis | fijal: going home to finish packing, see you in Atlanta | 17:30 |
| fijal | pedronis: see you | 17:30 |
| pedronis | see you | 17:30 |
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| arigato | hi Carl Friedrich | 17:31 |
| cfbolz | hi | 17:31 |
| cfbolz | hi armin | 17:32 |
| cfbolz | how was your vacation? | 17:32 |
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| arigato | it was rather nice | 17:38 |
| arigato | I'm having trouble digging inside pypy again now :-/ | 17:38 |
| fijal | cfbolz: hi | 17:39 |
| arigato | for 3 days I've mostly been running translations and failing to understand the crash of pypy-c-jit | 17:39 |
| cfbolz | yes, that's not much fun :-( | 17:39 |
| cfbolz | amaury had a crash a while ago as well | 17:39 |
| cfbolz | it looked like this: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/176173/ | 17:39 |
| cfbolz | (but I don't know the actual program) | 17:39 |
| cfbolz | looks like a stack overflow, somehow | 17:40 |
| arigato | ah, this one is probably easy to understand | 17:40 |
| arigato | it's indeed just a stack overflow | 17:40 |
| cfbolz | ok, I think I can fix that | 17:41 |
| arigato | probably the real program consumes a lot of the stack | 17:41 |
| cfbolz | ah | 17:41 |
| arigato | and then the JIT doesn't have much left | 17:41 |
| arigato | not completely sure what to do about it, to be honest | 17:41 |
| cfbolz | arigato: I think it's another issue also. ResumeDataLoopMemo_number is recursive in the saved stack | 17:42 |
| arigato | yes, I see | 17:42 |
| cfbolz | so if you inline a lot, you get this | 17:42 |
| cfbolz | which sounds bad, somehow | 17:42 |
| arigato | it's a minor issue, but still an issue | 17:43 |
| cfbolz | not that hard to fix, I think | 17:43 |
| arigato | if we could rewrite it to avoid the recursion it would probably be good | 17:43 |
| cfbolz | should be easy | 17:43 |
| arigato | yes, but that leaves open the question of what to do with real stack overflows in the jit | 17:43 |
| arigato | we could just capture it and ignore it for now, I suppose | 17:44 |
| cfbolz | right | 17:44 |
| arigato | and add 1 to some debugging counter :-) | 17:44 |
| arigato | just so we know, in case we get an example that triggers this a lot | 17:45 |
| cfbolz | I think iResumeDataLoopMemo.number is one of the few places in the JIT that is recursive | 17:45 |
| gutworth | _ensure_framestack_.... | 17:45 |
| arigato | good | 17:46 |
| arigato | it's possible to write a test for this situation, too | 17:46 |
| arigato | something like a Python program that adds one recursion level and causes more JIT compilation, and repeats forever | 17:46 |
| cfbolz | arigato: ? | 17:47 |
| arigato | def f(): | 17:47 |
| arigato | ...do stuff that forces some new JIT compilation... | 17:47 |
| arigato | f() | 17:47 |
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| cfbolz | ah | 17:49 |
| Action: cfbolz tries | 17:49 | |
| arigato | ah, it's probably also good to just let the interp-level RuntimeError propagate | 17:49 |
| fijal | except when it's NotImplementedError... | 17:49 |
| arigato | as it really means "we are out of stack space, I give up" | 17:50 |
| arigato | fijal: right | 17:50 |
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| arigato | for now I'm busy waiting for a crash in some extremely slow runs of pypy-c-jit | 18:06 |
| arigato | they are slow because I made it generate a check for every getfield and setfield everywhere | 18:06 |
| arigato | hoping to find out where this garbage object is set or read out first | 18:06 |
| arigato | I suppose it's great that we can easily add this kind of checks to the whole of pypy | 18:07 |
| arigato | but it takes ages anyway | 18:07 |
| arigato | just to retranslate and run the pypy-c-jit | 18:07 |
| Action: arigato stops distracting other people by passing the time in describing what he did | 18:08 | |
| kenaan | 03fijal 10r7124314 pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/pypyspeed 05A(/examples/) 07M(talk.pdf talk.tex): Finish slides ... | 18:10 |
| fijal | arigato: actually I appreciate that | 18:10 |
| arigato | :-) | 18:11 |
| fijal | you often don't describe what you do, so oververbosity is not a bad thing | 18:11 |
| fijal | for you, that is | 18:11 |
| arigato | ok | 18:11 |
| kenaan | 03fijal 10r7124414 05A(pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/pypyspeed/examples/tracing.py): missing file ... | 18:11 |
| arigato | fijal: just curious: | 18:15 |
| arigato | x = y + z | 18:15 |
| arigato | where are the 5 frame accesses? | 18:15 |
| cfbolz | read y, read z, push stuff on stack, read from stack, write to x | 18:16 |
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| arigato | cfbolz: that way of counting gives a result of 6 | 18:16 |
| cfbolz | why 6? | 18:17 |
| arigato | well no, even much more | 18:17 |
| arigato | read y, push it, read z, push it, pop(2x), push total, pop it, write to x | 18:17 |
| arigato | 9 | 18:17 |
| cfbolz | ah, true | 18:17 |
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| cfbolz | arigato: who said 5, anyway? | 18:20 |
| cfbolz | thne talk?> | 18:20 |
| cfbolz | yes, seems so | 18:20 |
| arigato | yes | 18:20 |
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| kenaan | 03benjamin 10r7124514 07M(pypy/trunk/pypy/jit/metainterp/pyjitpl.py): remove incorrect comment ... | 18:26 |
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| arigato | pom pom pom | 19:13 |
| cfbolz | arigato: not having any fun? | 19:16 |
| arigato | well, I should maybe try to find something else to do | 19:17 |
| arigato | while waiting | 19:17 |
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| exarkun | is even Deferred too much code/too megamorphic/whatever for the pypy jit right now? | 19:21 |
| cfbolz | arigato: eh | 19:21 |
| exarkun | http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/browser/trunk/doc/core/benchmarks/deferreds.py is slightly slower on pypy w/ jit from a couple weeks ago than on cpython | 19:22 |
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| cfbolz | exarkun: :-( | 19:23 |
| cfbolz | where's the code of Deffered? | 19:24 |
| exarkun | twisted/internet/defer.py | 19:24 |
| Alex_Gaynor | http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/browser/trunk/twisted/internet/defer.py | 19:24 |
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| Alex_Gaynor | exarkun: is it just me or are some styles missing from the code browser | 19:24 |
| arigato | I suppose it's already not awfully bad if it's only slightly slower than cpython | 19:25 |
| cfbolz | thanks | 19:25 |
| Alex_Gaynor | being old styles classes probably doesn't help | 19:25 |
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| cfbolz | exarkun: I fear the traceback stuff in __init__ is not really that nice for the JIT | 19:27 |
| exarkun | cfbolz: self.debug is always False for the benchmark... does that help? | 19:27 |
| cfbolz | ah | 19:27 |
| cfbolz | yes, a lot | 19:28 |
| cfbolz | sorry | 19:28 |
| exarkun | There's some other traceback stuff that might be happening later on | 19:28 |
| Action: exarkun checks | 19:28 | |
| exarkun | Alex_Gaynor: It looks fine to me, but I might just have the relevant css cached. | 19:28 |
| exarkun | Eh. One of the benchmark functions does invoke Failure's traceback walking code, but the other 9 or 10 don't. | 19:29 |
| cfbolz | I guess that one is kind of expected to be slow | 19:30 |
| exarkun | I also tried making Deferred subclass object. It helped slightly, but it helped CPython more, I think. | 19:31 |
| cfbolz | hehe | 19:32 |
| cfbolz | do I see it correctly that those two files are kind of self-dependent? | 19:33 |
| cfbolz | ie I don't need all of twisted to try this? | 19:33 |
| exarkun | not all of twisted, but you probably need a couple more files at least | 19:36 |
| exarkun | there's a couple twisted imports at the top of defer.py. you can probably delete most of them and still have a runnable benchmark, but twisted.python.failure may still be necessary | 19:36 |
| exarkun | (or you could skip the failure benchmark, I guess) | 19:37 |
| cfbolz | I guess it makes sense to try to make a nightly benchmark out of this? | 19:37 |
| exarkun | Maybe so. The reason I started looking at it was to try to figure out how to get some use out of it. :) | 19:39 |
| exarkun | Do you have any thoughts on benchmarks that produce multiple outputs like this one? (have you seen the output yet?) | 19:39 |
| exarkun | it produces something like this: http://pastebin.com/m140c35d6 | 19:40 |
| cfbolz | no, right now the infrastructure has no nice support for this :-( | 19:40 |
| cfbolz | exarkun: could you just paste your cpython and pypy results, maybe? | 19:40 |
| exarkun | sure | 19:41 |
| arigato | make 10 benchmarks :-) | 19:41 |
| exarkun | those were cpython-classic results | 19:41 |
| exarkun | pypy-classic: http://pastebin.com/m7c08155f | 19:41 |
| exarkun | another issue with this benchmark is that it might be totally irrelevant to the real world :\ | 19:42 |
| exarkun | no one ever has callback chains that are 10k entries long | 19:42 |
| cfbolz | exarkun: let me guess, instantiateShootErrback is the one that does traceback stuff? | 19:42 |
| exarkun | or even 1k entries long | 19:42 |
| exarkun | 10 is perhaps roughly realistic | 19:42 |
| exarkun | cfbolz: yea | 19:42 |
| cfbolz | kind of easy to spot, if you look at the times :-) | 19:43 |
| cfbolz | exarkun: I guess it might be irrelevant to the real world, but if the code doesn't do anything crazy, there is no reason why pypy should be slow | 19:44 |
| cfbolz | (although I guess we will probably find out that .pop(0) on a list is really slow in pypy for some reason) | 19:46 |
| arigato | I can imagine obscure hacks to get a constant-time pop(0)..... | 19:47 |
| exarkun | oh that reminds me, can pypy detect lists that are only ever appended to and pop(0)'d from and use a deque to implement them yet? :) | 19:47 |
| cfbolz | exarkun: no, but would be possible to fix | 19:48 |
| Alex_Gaynor | arigato: do you read python-dev ;) | 19:48 |
| arigato | Alex_Gaynor: usually not, but I happened to catch a glance at that thread | 19:48 |
| ebo^ | there was a patch for that recently and afaik it was shot down | 19:48 |
| cfbolz | ebo^: link? | 19:49 |
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| ebo^ | http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.devel/110117 | 19:50 |
| arigato | cfbolz: it's true that it might be worth a try to have an alternate implementation of lists, at least to try it out | 19:54 |
| arigato | something whose items are split into bunches | 19:55 |
| cfbolz | arigato: yes, but if we want to do something like that, we should think about multilists again | 19:55 |
| arigato | that would help pop(0) (or pop(n) in general) and also help the GC issue | 19:55 |
| arigato | yes | 19:55 |
| arigato | well either multilists, or just a single implementation if we manage to make it have little impact on small lists | 19:57 |
| cfbolz | I would prefer a clean multilist | 19:59 |
| cfbolz | exarkun: is there a reason why twisted doesn't use a deque in the first place? | 20:04 |
| exarkun | deque's a lot newer than Deferred | 20:06 |
| cfbolz | eh, ok :-) | 20:06 |
| cfbolz | exarkun: I guess if most things have ~10 callbacks, it doesn't matter anyway | 20:07 |
| Action: exarkun nods | 20:08 | |
| exarkun | Of course that's just an educated guess on my part. As with many things, this would benefit from instrumentation and measurement. :) | 20:08 |
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| cfbolz | e | 20:08 |
| cfbolz | exarkun: indeed :-) | 20:09 |
| cfbolz | see you around | 20:09 |
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| kenaan | 03arigo 10r7124714 07M(pypy/trunk/pypy/translator/c/funcgen.py): Fix a compiler warning (for 64-bit compatibility). ... | 20:55 |
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