#pypy IRC log for Monday, 2010-02-15

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kenaan03fijal 10r7123514 07M(pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/pypyspeed/talk.txt): A bit of progress, probably last checkin before I start real slides ...03:56
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kenaan03fijal 10r7123614 pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/keynote 07M(talk.pdf talk.tex): typos and minor fixes ...04:16
gutworthfijal: you say "for example" too much :)04:20
fijalgutworth: feel like fixing that?04:21
fijaland hi04:22
kenaan03benjamin 10r7123714 07M(pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/crossinterp/talk.txt): remove a little awkwardness ...04:24
fijalgutworth: that's samuele04:24
gutworthah, sorry then04:27
fijals my talk though04:31
fijaltoo bad you can't make it to pycon04:32
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kenaan03fijal 10r7123814 pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010 05A(/common/ beamerouterthememy.sty beamerthemeWarsaw.sty merlinux-logo.png pypy-logo.png beamerouterthememy.sty beamerthemeWarsaw.sty) 06D(beamerouterthememy.sty beamerthemeWarsaw.st ...04:46
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fijalAlex_Gaynor: hi05:43
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kenaan03fijal 10r7123914 pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/pypyspeed 05A(beamerouterthememy.sty beamerthemeWarsaw.sty talk.pdf talk.tex): start working on talk ...05:50
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antocuniso, who makes me a short summary of what happened in pypy last week? :-)11:55
arigatohi antonio.  I would be glad to hear it too :-)12:00
Action: arigato fights a bit with Psyco to support the new bytecodes of Python 2.712:01
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arigatothey added stuff like POP_JUMP_IF_FALSE which is a bit messy12:02
arigatobecause there are so many semi-implicit constrains in psyco12:02
arigatoI'm busy trying to remember them all :-(12:02
pedronisantocuni: not much, some pycon preparations, cfbolz at some point maybe before merged oprofile support12:03
antocunipedronis: ok, thanks12:03
antocuniI see that html5lib is much faster now12:04
antocuniwhat happened?12:04
antocunihi armin!12:04
pedroniscfbolz rewrote some codecs at interp level12:04
antocuniah, nice12:04
pedroniswe looked a bit into generators as well, some ideas but nothing on trunk yet12:04
pedronisI arigato is still trying to debug some crashes12:05
pedroniss/I arigato/I think arigato/12:05
arigatoyes :-(12:06
pedronisI'm leaving tomorrow for pycon so not much going on here12:06
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pedroniscfbolz: hi12:49
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Action: tav waves anyone around ?15:30
cfbolzsomeone always is15:31
tavgot a stable: how stable would a non-jit'd pypy interpreter running in sandboxed "mode" be? i.e. will it run w/o crashing?15:31
tavcfbolz =)15:31
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cfbolznon-jitted is very stable by now15:32
tavknow how importing works when sandboxed? how do modules get imported when the interpreter doesn't have access to the filesystem ?15:33
cfbolzyou can fake a file-system15:34
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fijalpedronis: when do you fly?16:18
fijalpedronis: thanks for cross interp slides16:21
fijalI think this is mostly it16:21
fijalpedronis: is "inter peter" something real?16:23
fijalor just a typo?16:23
pedronisoops typo16:24
kenaan03fijal 10r7124214 07M(pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/vmsummit/talk.txt): my affiliation & typo ...16:26
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pedronisfijal: the crossinterp ones needs to be transformed into a real slide format16:27
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fijalpedronis: yeah16:27
fijalpedronis: I'm working on pypyspeed one now16:27
fijalbut will do that16:27
pedronisI will soonish leave to go home finish packing16:27
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pedronisfijal: seems we should try to be at the sync meeting thurs16:32
pedronis(release planning again)16:32
pedronisit's going to be during the lang summit, no?16:33
fijalholger won't be there16:33
fijalsince he has a tutorial16:33
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pedroniswell he is going to be traveling around during the release window anyway, no16:34
pedronisisn't he back properly only in april?16:34
fijalI don't know16:35
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fijalpedronis: did you see my mail?16:51
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pedronisfijal: yes16:55
fijalany thoughts?16:55
pedronisI don't know, the problem with trunk is that is of course of moving target16:55
fijalI sort of don't believe myself16:55
fijalI might have local changes or something16:56
fijaleven though I think I checked16:56
fijalso would be good if someone can reproduce it16:56
fijalwell, but I guess it's not for today16:56
pedronisthe wait to have assembler stuff?16:56
pedroniscfbolz started working a bit on that branch16:56
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fijalparse error16:57
fijal"the wait to have assembler stuff?"16:57
fijalwhat do you mean?16:57
fijalyou mean abort_no_asm branch?16:57
fijalhow is it twisted-related?16:58
pedronisI don't know16:58
pedronisjust wondering if you had that change still in your working copy16:58
arigato(sorry, are you talking about a mail to samuele only or is there an issue with my mailbox?)16:59
pedronisit's a mail only to me16:59
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pedronisthough is really a general question16:59
pedroniswhether to swith the twisted benchmarks to twisted trunk16:59
pedronisbecause fijal says they are faster with the newer code16:59
fijalarigato: the issue being that on twisted benchmark (twisted_web) I observe speedups on trunk17:00
pedroniswhat kind of speedups?17:00
pedronisthat's relevant too17:00
fijalabout 2x17:02
fijalalthough I think we should investigate this first17:02
fijalor at least someone should be able to reproduce that17:02
arigatobtw, would you two be around in a Leysin sprint after Easter?17:02
pedroniswhen is easter again?17:03
Action: fijal did not know the sprint date was decided17:03
fijalarigato: no17:03
arigato"I can't answer yet" is fine :-)17:03
arigatopedronis: that would be e.g. 10-18 april17:03
pedronisvery unlikely at this point17:03
fijalarigato: I could be beginning of may, probably17:04
arigatook, then I suppose I need to ask the next question: does it make any sense at all to continue organizing sprints or are we all kind of dropping the style?17:04
pedronisI don't know, I fear a will have more things to say after I'm back from my trips17:05
pedronisI suppose it's a really a question for a much larger group17:07
arigatook, sorry about that17:08
fijalarigato: you can also view that as a "series of personal questions"17:08
fijaland I don't know answer to any of those17:09
arigatoI'm planning to come back to Gtbg for one month until Easter17:10
arigato(just so you know)17:10
fijalarigato: what do you do next?17:11
fijal(if you know)17:11
arigatowell, back in Switzerland for Easter anyway,17:12
arigatothen probably a trip to Düsseldorf, but after that it's likely to be Gtbg again17:13
arigatothat also means that I'm open to other suggestions17:15
fijalheh, ok :-)17:15
fijalarigato: from my side, I'm likely to stay in the US till end April17:16
fijaland since I did not decide what to do with my life afterwards, I won't make any promises17:16
arigatowell, same here, really17:16
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pedronisfijal: going home to finish packing, see you in Atlanta17:30
fijalpedronis: see you17:30
pedronissee you17:30
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arigatohi Carl Friedrich17:31
cfbolzhi armin17:32
cfbolzhow was your vacation?17:32
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arigatoit was rather nice17:38
arigatoI'm having trouble digging inside pypy again now :-/17:38
fijalcfbolz: hi17:39
arigatofor 3 days I've mostly been running translations and failing to understand the crash of pypy-c-jit17:39
cfbolzyes, that's not much fun :-(17:39
cfbolzamaury had a crash a while ago as well17:39
cfbolzit looked like this: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/176173/17:39
cfbolz(but I don't know the actual program)17:39
cfbolzlooks like a stack overflow, somehow17:40
arigatoah, this one is probably easy to understand17:40
arigatoit's indeed just a stack overflow17:40
cfbolzok, I think I can fix that17:41
arigatoprobably the real program consumes a lot of the stack17:41
arigatoand then the JIT doesn't have much left17:41
arigatonot completely sure what to do about it, to be honest17:41
cfbolzarigato: I think it's another issue also. ResumeDataLoopMemo_number is recursive in the saved stack17:42
arigatoyes, I see17:42
cfbolzso if you inline a lot, you get this17:42
cfbolzwhich sounds bad, somehow17:42
arigatoit's a minor issue, but still an issue17:43
cfbolznot that hard to fix, I think17:43
arigatoif we could rewrite it to avoid the recursion it would probably be good17:43
cfbolzshould be easy17:43
arigatoyes, but that leaves open the question of what to do with real stack overflows in the jit17:43
arigatowe could just capture it and ignore it for now, I suppose17:44
arigatoand add 1 to some debugging counter :-)17:44
arigatojust so we know, in case we get an example that triggers this a lot17:45
cfbolzI think iResumeDataLoopMemo.number is one of the few places in the JIT that is recursive17:45
arigatoit's possible to write a test for this situation, too17:46
arigatosomething like a Python program that adds one recursion level and causes more JIT compilation, and repeats forever17:46
cfbolzarigato: ?17:47
arigatodef f():17:47
arigato   ...do stuff that forces some new JIT compilation...17:47
arigato   f()17:47
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Action: cfbolz tries17:49
arigatoah, it's probably also good to just let the interp-level RuntimeError propagate17:49
fijalexcept when it's NotImplementedError...17:49
arigatoas it really means "we are out of stack space, I give up"17:50
arigatofijal: right17:50
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arigatofor now I'm busy waiting for a crash in some extremely slow runs of pypy-c-jit18:06
arigatothey are slow because I made it generate a check for every getfield and setfield everywhere18:06
arigatohoping to find out where this garbage object is set or read out first18:06
arigatoI suppose it's great that we can easily add this kind of checks to the whole of pypy18:07
arigatobut it takes ages anyway18:07
arigatojust to retranslate and run the pypy-c-jit18:07
Action: arigato stops distracting other people by passing the time in describing what he did18:08
kenaan03fijal 10r7124314 pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/pypyspeed 05A(/examples/) 07M(talk.pdf talk.tex): Finish slides ...18:10
fijalarigato: actually I appreciate that18:10
fijalyou often don't describe what you do, so oververbosity is not a bad thing18:11
fijalfor you, that is18:11
kenaan03fijal 10r7124414 05A(pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/pypyspeed/examples/tracing.py): missing file ...18:11
arigatofijal: just curious:18:15
arigatox = y + z18:15
arigatowhere are the 5 frame accesses?18:15
cfbolzread y, read z, push stuff on stack, read from stack, write to x18:16
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arigatocfbolz: that way of counting gives a result of 618:16
cfbolzwhy 6?18:17
arigatowell no, even much more18:17
arigatoread y, push it, read z, push it, pop(2x), push total, pop it, write to x18:17
cfbolzah, true18:17
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cfbolzarigato: who said 5, anyway?18:20
cfbolzthne talk?>18:20
cfbolzyes, seems so18:20
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kenaan03benjamin 10r7124514 07M(pypy/trunk/pypy/jit/metainterp/pyjitpl.py): remove incorrect comment ...18:26
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arigatopom pom pom19:13
cfbolzarigato: not having any fun?19:16
arigatowell, I should maybe try to find something else to do19:17
arigatowhile waiting19:17
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exarkunis even Deferred too much code/too megamorphic/whatever for the pypy jit right now?19:21
cfbolzarigato: eh19:21
exarkunhttp://twistedmatrix.com/trac/browser/trunk/doc/core/benchmarks/deferreds.py is slightly slower on pypy w/ jit from a couple weeks ago than on cpython19:22
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cfbolzexarkun: :-(19:23
cfbolzwhere's the code of Deffered?19:24
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Alex_Gaynorexarkun: is it just me or are some styles missing from the code browser19:24
arigatoI suppose it's already not awfully bad if it's only slightly slower than cpython19:25
Alex_Gaynorbeing old styles classes probably doesn't help19:25
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cfbolzexarkun: I fear the traceback stuff in __init__ is not really that nice for the JIT19:27
exarkuncfbolz: self.debug is always False for the benchmark... does that help? 19:27
cfbolzyes, a lot19:28
exarkunThere's some other traceback stuff that might be happening later on19:28
Action: exarkun checks19:28
exarkunAlex_Gaynor: It looks fine to me, but I might just have the relevant css cached.19:28
exarkunEh.  One of the benchmark functions does invoke Failure's traceback walking code, but the other 9 or 10 don't.19:29
cfbolzI guess that one is kind of expected to be slow19:30
exarkunI also tried making Deferred subclass object.  It helped slightly, but it helped CPython more, I think.19:31
cfbolzdo I see it correctly that those two files are kind of self-dependent?19:33
cfbolzie I don't need all of twisted to try this?19:33
exarkunnot all of twisted, but you probably need a couple more files at least19:36
exarkunthere's a couple twisted imports at the top of defer.py.  you can probably delete most of them and still have a runnable benchmark, but twisted.python.failure may still be necessary19:36
exarkun(or you could skip the failure benchmark, I guess)19:37
cfbolzI guess it makes sense to try to make a nightly benchmark out of this?19:37
exarkunMaybe so.  The reason I started looking at it was to try to figure out how to get some use out of it. :)19:39
exarkunDo you have any thoughts on benchmarks that produce multiple outputs like this one?  (have you seen the output yet?)19:39
exarkunit produces something like this: http://pastebin.com/m140c35d619:40
cfbolzno, right now the infrastructure has no nice support for this :-(19:40
cfbolzexarkun: could you just paste your cpython and pypy results, maybe?19:40
arigatomake 10 benchmarks :-)19:41
exarkunthose were cpython-classic results19:41
exarkunpypy-classic: http://pastebin.com/m7c08155f19:41
exarkunanother issue with this benchmark is that it might be totally irrelevant to the real world :\19:42
exarkunno one ever has callback chains that are 10k entries long19:42
cfbolzexarkun: let me guess, instantiateShootErrback is the one that does traceback stuff?19:42
exarkunor even 1k entries long19:42
exarkun10 is perhaps roughly realistic19:42
exarkuncfbolz: yea19:42
cfbolzkind of easy to spot, if you look at the times :-)19:43
cfbolzexarkun: I guess it might be irrelevant to the real world, but if the code doesn't do anything crazy, there is no reason why pypy should be slow19:44
cfbolz(although I guess we will probably find out that .pop(0) on a list is really slow in pypy for some reason)19:46
arigatoI can imagine obscure hacks to get a constant-time pop(0).....19:47
exarkunoh that reminds me, can pypy detect lists that are only ever appended to and pop(0)'d from and use a deque to implement them yet? :)19:47
cfbolzexarkun: no, but would be possible to fix19:48
Alex_Gaynorarigato: do you read python-dev ;)19:48
arigatoAlex_Gaynor: usually not, but I happened to catch a glance at that thread19:48
ebo^there was a patch for that recently and afaik it was shot down19:48
cfbolzebo^: link?19:49
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arigatocfbolz: it's true that it might be worth a try to have an alternate implementation of lists, at least to try it out19:54
arigatosomething whose items are split into bunches19:55
cfbolzarigato: yes, but if we want to do something like that, we should think about multilists again19:55
arigatothat would help pop(0) (or pop(n) in general) and also help the GC issue19:55
arigatowell either multilists, or just a single implementation if we manage to make it have little impact on small lists19:57
cfbolzI would prefer a clean multilist19:59
cfbolzexarkun: is there a reason why twisted doesn't use a deque in the first place?20:04
exarkundeque's a lot newer than Deferred20:06
cfbolzeh, ok :-)20:06
cfbolzexarkun: I guess if most things have ~10 callbacks, it doesn't matter anyway20:07
Action: exarkun nods20:08
exarkunOf course that's just an educated guess on my part.  As with many things, this would benefit from instrumentation and measurement. :)20:08
Action: cfbolz -> movi20:08
cfbolzexarkun: indeed :-)20:09
cfbolzsee you around20:09
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Nick change: froosch_ -> froosch20:44
kenaan03arigo 10r7124714 07M(pypy/trunk/pypy/translator/c/funcgen.py): Fix a compiler warning (for 64-bit compatibility). ...20:55
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