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| fijal | hi | 03:18 |
|---|---|---|
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| gutworth | fijal: hi, how are you? | 04:06 |
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| fijal | gutworth: cold | 04:09 |
| fijal | gutworth: it's not supposed to be 32 on the mexican gulf | 04:09 |
| fijal | and snowing | 04:10 |
| gutworth | hehe, is that like poland? | 04:10 |
| fijal | no, poland is a bit colder this time of the year | 04:11 |
| fijal | however, I try not to sleep outside and climb :) | 04:11 |
| gutworth | one or the other? | 04:14 |
| fijal | at least not both | 04:15 |
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| Alex_Gaynor | Does anyone know where I can find antocuino's thesis? | 04:30 |
| Action: fijal does | 04:31 | |
| Alex_Gaynor | link? | 04:31 |
| fijal | http://codespeak.net/svn/user/antocuni/phd/thesis/ | 04:31 |
| fijal | whatever stuff is there :) | 04:31 |
| Alex_Gaynor | thanks | 04:31 |
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| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: will pypy be applying to the GSOC (or getting students under the PSF)? | 04:42 |
| fijal | Alex_Gaynor: we'll try to get students under PSF | 04:42 |
| fijal | interested? | 04:42 |
| Alex_Gaynor | sorry, I'm applying to work on Django again | 04:42 |
| fijal | cool I guess :) | 04:43 |
| fijal | so it's up to the fact if we get good students or not | 04:43 |
| fijal | last year we did not | 04:43 |
| Alex_Gaynor | What was the student last year supposed to work on? | 04:43 |
| fijal | Alex_Gaynor: I don't even remember | 04:48 |
| fijal | LLVM's JIT backend | 04:49 |
| Alex_Gaynor | fijal: hehe, too bad. maybe this year you can get an x86-64 expert (perhaps a little too much to hope for) | 04:49 |
| fijal | Alex_Gaynor: let's hope so | 04:50 |
| pekuja | &win 21 | 05:04 |
| pekuja | oops | 05:04 |
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| Action: tav waves | 10:38 | |
| arigato | hi | 10:50 |
| tav | hey arigato | 10:56 |
| tav | i got a few questions i was hoping you (or others) could answer... a) is the 1.2 release still imminent? b) is pypy stdlib still at 2.5 or is 2.6 there now? c) how does importing work with the pypy sandbox? d) does the sandbox still work with the jit ? | 10:58 |
| tav | (sorry for the overload of questions) | 11:00 |
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| cfbolz | tav: hey :-) | 11:06 |
| tav | hey! | 11:07 |
| cfbolz | tav: pypy stdlib is still at 2.5 | 11:07 |
| tav | ltns | 11:07 |
| cfbolz | indeed | 11:07 |
| cfbolz | hope you are fine! | 11:07 |
| tav | very much so | 11:07 |
| cfbolz | good :) | 11:07 |
| cfbolz | the release is not quite imminent, we decided to work on things a bit longer, given that the JIT results are not quite what we wanted them to be | 11:08 |
| tav | aha | 11:08 |
| cfbolz | well, things work great for simple algorithmic code | 11:09 |
| cfbolz | but many real-world things (regexes, de/encoding, etc) are rather slow | 11:09 |
| cfbolz | which is not even the fault of the jit | 11:09 |
| tav | http://buildbot.pypy.org/plotsummary.html <--- something like the html5lib benchmarks seems reasonable? | 11:10 |
| tav | (btw, congrats to whoever did the bench summary work!) | 11:10 |
| cfbolz | maciek and samuele, mostly | 11:11 |
| cfbolz | yes, html5lib became faster because I tweaked unicode stuff | 11:12 |
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| tav | aha | 11:12 |
| tav | hey voidspace, ltns | 11:12 |
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| Nick change: voidspace -> fuzzyman | 11:13 | |
| tav | voidspace single handedly occupies the majority of tweets i see on http://tweets.trustmaps.com/#tav/python/python | 11:13 |
| tav | cfbolz: what were the unicode tweaks ? | 11:13 |
| cfbolz | making some codec faster | 11:13 |
| cfbolz | ah, also generators are still a bit bad | 11:14 |
| tav | hmz | 11:20 |
| tav | is the jit considered "stable" to use at all? i.e. whilst it may not offer speedups and even add overhead, will using it cause programs to crash which wouldn't crash otherwise? | 11:22 |
| MostAwesomeDude | It depends. | 11:22 |
| MostAwesomeDude | But it's fairly stable for the things it supports. | 11:22 |
| Action: tav blinks at MostAwesomeDude new nick (for someone else?) | 11:23 | |
| tav | MostAwesomeDude: "it depends" == ? | 11:23 |
| cfbolz | there are probably still crashes left | 11:24 |
| MostAwesomeDude | tav: It's not perfect, but it works. | 11:24 |
| MostAwesomeDude | tav: No, this has been my nick for years and years now. | 11:25 |
| tav | cfbolz: thx | 11:29 |
| tav | MostAwesomeDude: ah, my apologies, hi =) | 11:29 |
| MostAwesomeDude | tav: Hi! :3 | 11:29 |
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| arigato | well, last I looked (last week), the jit seemed to be pretty resistant against crashes, but there might be a few corner cases left | 11:31 |
| cfbolz | arigato: amaury found one | 11:32 |
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| MostAwesomeDude | There will always be corner cases. It's fairly stable for such a young project, though. | 11:32 |
| arigato | I just want to avoid people getting the impression that our jit supports some features, but crashes when you try to use others | 11:32 |
| cfbolz | tav said "whilst it may not offer speedups and even add overhead, will using it cause programs to crash which wouldn't crash otherwise?" | 11:33 |
| cfbolz | which needs to be answered by "yes" | 11:33 |
| cfbolz | (and is a fair assessment, in my opinion) | 11:33 |
| MostAwesomeDude | The other thing is "crashes" vs. unimportable modules, either because of CPython-specific code or deficiencies in e.g. ctypes. | 11:34 |
| MostAwesomeDude | People take things like pygame for granted. | 11:34 |
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| reynaudd | hi | 13:49 |
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| reynaudd | does anybody have a pointer on how to use the trace object space? | 13:54 |
| reynaudd | ok I get it, __pytrace__ = 1 in py.py | 13:55 |
| reynaudd | is there a way to use the trace object space in the standalone executable of pypy ? | 13:56 |
| gutworth | try translating with -o trace | 13:58 |
| reynaudd | translate: error: no such option: -o | 13:59 |
| gutworth | --objspace | 13:59 |
| reynaudd | same thing | 14:00 |
| pedronis | I don't think that space can be translated | 14:00 |
| pedronis | (not sure though) | 14:00 |
| pedronis | it's mostly meant to play with py.py | 14:00 |
| reynaudd | ok thanks | 14:00 |
| reynaudd | is there by chance an "absolute beginner guide to writing new pypy backends" somewhere? | 14:03 |
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| pedronis | reynaudd: what kind of backend? | 14:06 |
| pedronis | for the jit or a static translation one | 14:06 |
| reynaudd | static translation | 14:06 |
| pedronis | not really | 14:07 |
| pedronis | what do you want to target? | 14:07 |
| reynaudd | a simple low-level language, à la LLVM | 14:08 |
| pedronis | when we had a LLVM backend it was quite of a hack, there are parts of the C backend that it would be nice if they were factored out | 14:10 |
| arigato | but for now the easiest way to get LLVM translation is just to write C code and use llvm-gcc | 14:10 |
| pedronis | yes, but he said like LLVM not LLVM | 14:10 |
| arigato | ah right, sorry | 14:11 |
| reynaudd | pedronis: spot on :) | 14:11 |
| pedronis | well it's a messy task, either you duplicate or you refactor | 14:11 |
| pedronis | duplicate, been there, it's not nice at all | 14:11 |
| pedronis | basically is not a task of the form, there's a clear interface, fill in these methods | 14:12 |
| reynaudd | refactor the c backend? | 14:12 |
| pedronis | extract bits | 14:12 |
| pedronis | yes | 14:12 |
| pedronis | and think of that interface | 14:12 |
| pedronis | you would probably also need to look how oo backends do tests, because the c backend ones are much more adhoc | 14:15 |
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| reynaudd | the workflow I imagine is this: I write some function in RPython, and I want to translate it in my microlanguage. So I imagine I have to write a backend that takes the output of the lltyper and dumbs it down. Somehow. | 14:16 |
| pedronis | the oo backends basically use all the examples from the lltyper tests iteself | 14:17 |
| pedronis | as tests | 14:17 |
| pedronis | the issues are that there is quite a bit to do about static prebuilt data, | 14:17 |
| pedronis | exception handling and integration with the gcs | 14:18 |
| pedronis | it's not just a matter of rendering flowgraphs with ops basically | 14:18 |
| pedronis | you need to render the data that is pointed from the flow graphs | 14:18 |
| pedronis | and have ways to invoke transformations to handle allocations and exceptions | 14:19 |
| pedronis | it also depends whether you want to do this to have a complete backend or just to learn | 14:19 |
| reynaudd | the micro language is not meant to be executed so I think I don't have to worry about GC and exception handling | 14:19 |
| pedronis | what it is meant for then? | 14:20 |
| reynaudd | specification | 14:20 |
| pedronis | notice that if it cannot be executed | 14:20 |
| pedronis | reusing our usual style of testing is going to be hard | 14:20 |
| pedronis | because they tend to test translation results | 14:21 |
| pedronis | by running them | 14:21 |
| reynaudd | the long version of what I want to do is this: take an x86 instruction, such as add eax, Y | 14:26 |
| reynaudd | a way to specify its behavior in Java is this: | 14:27 |
| reynaudd | reg0 = cpu.eax & 0xffffffff; | 14:27 |
| reynaudd | reg1 = Y & 0xffffffff; | 14:27 |
| reynaudd | reg0 = reg2 + reg1; | 14:27 |
| reynaudd | cpu.eax = (cpu.eax & ~0xffffffff) | (reg0 & 0xffffffff); | 14:28 |
| reynaudd | and so on | 14:28 |
| reynaudd | what I would like to do is to specify it in RPython instead of Java | 14:28 |
| reynaudd | and use PyPy to translate the RPython description in a simpler language | 14:28 |
| arigato | http://indefinitestudies.org/2010/02/11/a-note-on-the-x86-semantics-modeling-in-jpc/ | 14:28 |
| reynaudd | yep, that's me ^^ | 14:29 |
| arigato | :-) | 14:29 |
| pedronis | so you need a subset of rpython? | 14:29 |
| reynaudd | yes | 14:29 |
| reynaudd | rrpython? ^^ | 14:30 |
| pedronis | well, let's just say that is not a backend that makes to have in pypy/trunk proper | 14:30 |
| arigato | isn't the java backend enough for that? | 14:30 |
| reynaudd | arigato: no, the backend should be more bytecodesque | 14:31 |
| arigato | sorry, that doesn't mean anything to me | 14:32 |
| arigato | but I'm prepared to believe you | 14:32 |
| reynaudd | I would like the end result to be a bytecode language with a very small number of opcodes | 14:33 |
| pedronis | I'm not sure I see why it needs to be an ll backend though | 14:34 |
| reynaudd | in the end it would be nice to only have operations on bytes | 14:34 |
| pedronis | but that has little to do with ll vs. oo | 14:35 |
| arigato | I don't see how Java is not a bytecode language with a very small number of opcodes (if you don't use a lot of them) | 14:35 |
| reynaudd | it is, but I'd like an even smaller number of opcodes | 14:35 |
| arigato | well what I'm saying is that starting from translator/jvm looks like a far better plan than starting from translator/c | 14:36 |
| reynaudd | ok | 14:36 |
| pedronis | I agree with that | 14:36 |
| pedronis | notice that it will be slighty easier to understand | 14:36 |
| pedronis | and translate things like cpu.eax | 14:36 |
| pedronis | than in ll | 14:36 |
| pedronis | or things like modeling of memory | 14:36 |
| pedronis | in general our oo backend have a bit more of structure/common infrastructure than the ll one (c) | 14:37 |
| reynaudd | ok, noted | 14:38 |
| reynaudd | it might sound a bit strange, but I really think PyPy fits pretty nicely with my goal :) | 14:41 |
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| ElectronicRU | Hi all. | 14:44 |
| reynaudd | hi | 14:44 |
| arigato | hi | 14:44 |
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| ElectronicRU | Any good news? | 14:45 |
| ElectronicRU | No good news? :o | 14:47 |
| pedronis | no good news, no | 14:48 |
| ElectronicRU | Poor. Let's make it! | 14:49 |
| kenaan | 03pedronis 10r7120414 pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010 05A(/crossinterp/ /vmsummit/): directories for the other talks ... | 14:49 |
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| kenaan | 03pedronis 10r7120514 05A(pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/vmsummit/outline.txt): brief outline ... | 14:56 |
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| Action: arigato got a "Fatal RPython error: AssertionError" in AbstractVirtualStructValue__really_force | 15:17 | |
| pedronis | fun | 15:17 |
| arigato | yes, I guessed it was how best to come back to working on the jit | 15:18 |
| arigato | just run pypy-c-jit on random translate.py invocations and look at crashes | 15:18 |
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| reynaudd | there is no simple way to tell translate.py to output Jasmin files, right? | 15:41 |
| arigato | --backend=jvm | 15:42 |
| reynaudd | I can't find .j files | 15:43 |
| pedronis | they are in a tmp directory | 15:43 |
| pedronis | usession- something | 15:43 |
| reynaudd | right, thanks :) | 15:45 |
| arigato | a segfault now | 15:55 |
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| Nick change: fijal_ -> fijal | 16:23 | |
| fijal | hi | 16:29 |
| fijal | arigato: fuuuun | 16:30 |
| arigato | hi! | 16:30 |
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| fijal | arigato: have a moment to discuss slides? | 17:07 |
| fijal | like 10 minutes? | 17:08 |
| pedronis | fijal: I started outlining some stuff for the vmsummit | 17:12 |
| pedronis | I will work more on the weekend | 17:13 |
| fijal | ok | 17:13 |
| fijal | pedronis: shall I have a look? | 17:13 |
| pedronis | not much there but if you want | 17:13 |
| fijal | I started outlining the speed of pypy | 17:13 |
| kenaan | 03fijal 10r7120714 07M(pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/pypyspeed/talk.txt): Progress on this talk, a bit chaotic ... | 17:13 |
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| fijal | right, that's fine so far | 17:13 |
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| kenaan | 03fijal 10r7120814 07M(pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/pypyspeed/talk.txt): more slides ... | 17:36 |
| kenaan | 03pedronis 10r7120914 07M(pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/pypyspeed/talk.txt): typo ... | 17:55 |
| kenaan | 03pedronis 10r7121014 07M(pypy/extradoc/talk/pycon2010/pypyspeed/talk.txt): some more points ... | 17:58 |
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| arigato | "Fatal RPython error: AssertionError" now in force_virtual | 18:08 |
| arigato | that's really hard to track because it's very hard to reproduce | 18:09 |
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| magcius | Is antocuni on vacation? | 18:18 |
| pedronis | vague memory that yes | 18:22 |
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| amaury_ | hi | 18:22 |
| amaury_ | arigato: back from vacation? | 18:24 |
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| arigato | this channel contains the word "vacation" independently twice in 6 minutes. conclude what you like about pypy :-) | 18:31 |
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| amaury_ | This channel indeed tends to be quiet these days | 18:36 |
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| amaury_ | arigato: I could not find a fix for my asmgcroot problem | 18:38 |
| arigato | :-( | 18:39 |
| xorAxAx | arigato: so you are in aigle next week? | 18:40 |
| arigato | yes | 18:40 |
| pedronis | large doses of pypy are unhealthy, a done of vacation is recommended regularly | 18:42 |
| pedronis | s/done/dose/ | 18:43 |
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| --- Sat Feb 13 2010 | 00:00 | |
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