#pypy IRC log for Saturday, 2007-12-01

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stakkarsarigato: hi! still up? You are yet not back into your time zone01:10
arigatoI suppose I'm more or less back to my regular hours01:14
arigatoI'm trying to make sure I sleep long enough, and using an alarm clock to not sleep too long01:15
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-christel (i=christel@freenode/staff/gentoo.christel) to $*- [Global Notice] Hi all! To those of you relying on tor for connections to freenode I am terribly sorry to inform you that non tor-gpg (http://freenode.net/irc_servers.shtml#tor) connections have been blocked. This block may be in place for at least a number of days while we try to deal with systematic abuse. Again, I apologise for the inconvenience and hope that we will find a solution soon. Thank you for using freenode and have a good day!01:24
stakkarsI have the opposite problem right now :-)01:25
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black_13stackless does not have a coroutine it instead has a tasklet and a channel?05:08
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black_13anyone stil alive06:08
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haskelltonearigo - r49237 - Some remaining usages of id().11:13
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xorAxAxmoin carl11:14
cfbolzI fixed the stats to disregard unicodedata11:15
xorAxAxdisregarding the stdlib would be nice as well :)11:16
xorAxAxor fixeol11:16
cfbolzah, good idea11:16
xorAxAxthen you can start parsing the messages for pairprogramming hints :-)11:16
xorAxAxand finally realise that loc is a pretty annoying metric11:17
xorAxAxin a project for university last year, i was the one with 10 times more loc than any other person of the ~100 people11:17
cfbolzI don't want to hack the java code11:17
cfbolza project with 100 people?11:18
xorAxAxbecause i ran fixeol on some packages they gave us11:18
xorAxAxcfbolz: no, 10x1011:18
xorAxAxbut we got the stats of all projects (anonymised, though)11:18
xorAxAxcfbolz: you could sort by no. of commits, though11:23
arigatoah, maybe not completely argh11:24
stargamingSo, if someone always commits small style fixes etc., he wins over the one writing big chunks of great code locally and commiting them eventually?11:25
cfbolzstargaming: yes11:25
cfbolzstargaming: which we want to encourage anyway11:25
cfbolzxorAxAx: I am not sure I can control the thing that well11:26
stargamingAh, okay.11:26
xorAxAxcfbolz: hehe11:26
cfbolzxorAxAx: it's pretty much a black box process11:26
xorAxAxyes, logilab would lose a few positions after such a change :)11:26
cfbolzthe heatmap is a very cool feature11:27
cfbolzarigato: why argh?11:28
haskelltonearigo - r49238 - Use again the invert of the address of the object as its default hash, for Boehm.11:28
arigatocfbolz: we have a test that for a prebuilt RPython instance 'x', hash(x) has the same value on CPython and after translation11:29
cfbolzand that failed?11:29
arigatono, but that's almost impossible to guarantee after a translation to an oo backend11:29
arigatothe test passes because it works with llinterp+ootype11:29
arigatobut then I realized that the property in question is not so essential for oo translations anyway11:30
arigatoits purpose was to not break prebuilt dicts in ll backends11:30
arigatobtw, feel like looking at http://wyvern.cs.uni-duesseldorf.de/pypytest/49233/failed/rlib.test.test_rope.py.test_find_iterator_unicode.html?11:31
haskelltonearigo - r49239 - Port of r49238.11:33
cfbolzarigato: ah, yes. that's a python 2.4 bug11:33
cfbolzarigato: isn't the issue for ootype backends moot because they don't have proper prebuilt objects anyway?11:33
cfbolzthey have a function that creates the objects at startup, I think11:34
arigatothat's a detail11:34
arigatothe point is more, should an RPython program be able to assume something about the hash() of objects11:34
cfbolzand I guess the answer is no11:35
cfbolzif you store hash(x) somewhere in a prebuilt instance it will be different from hash(x) at runtime for prebuilts11:35
arigatoin the prolog interpreter, is the result of get_unify_hash() stored anywhere?11:36
arigatoit seems to be stored on the Rule11:36
arigatolooks like a perfect example of something that will be broken because of a changing hash across translation11:37
arigato(if there are prebuilt Rules)11:38
cfbolzthere aren't11:40
cfbolzthere shouldn't :)11:40
arigatomaybe time to add a _freeze_ method that explodes with a nice error message :-)11:41
haskelltonearigo - r49240 - These checks are too precise, e.g. when llvm reuses the test.11:46
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xorAxAxon cpy-dev about cpy:11:48
xorAxAx"On both of my systems, using -O2 reduces execution time in pystone by 9% 11:48
xorAxAxand in pybench by 8%. It's function inlining: "-O3 11:48
xorAxAx-fno-inline-functions" works just as well as "-O2". "11:48
haskelltonearigo - r49241 - This doesn't make much sense any more.11:50
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cfbolzarigato: what's the proper way to check for python versions?12:45
cfbolzpedronis: morning!12:48
pedroniscfbolz: sys.version_info ?12:49
cfbolzah, and then tuple comparison?12:49
pedronisdepending what you need, yes12:50
haskelltonecfbolz - r49242 - the test hit a bug under 2.4 and 2.312:56
xorAxAx+    if sys.version_info > (2, 5):13:00
xorAxAxuntested test obviously :)13:01
haskelltonecfbolz - r49243 - wrong comparison order - thanks alexander13:05
Action: xorAxAx once managed to do a list/tuple comparison in a version check path showing a pretty confusing error message to users ("Your version 0.3 is not new enough, we need at least 0.2" :))13:07
cfbolzxorAxAx: I tested it with 2.5 and there it worked :-)13:08
pedronistdd is hard13:09
AntonKgood afternoon all13:17
xorAxAxhi AntonK 13:21
xorAxAxAntonK: seems like chris doesnt think that bug 1828 is important :)13:21
AntonKit's not Chris13:22
AntonKloop stuff is mostly Devang's13:22
AntonKdunno, why he didn't comment on it:(13:22
AntonKI think, I'll ping him :)13:23
AntonKping'ed :)13:31
AntonKwill see13:31
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tverwaes_in python you can always do module.__dict__...15:27
tverwaes_is there a way of doing this on the __main__?15:28
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tverwaesmmh right ....... and something on which I can call __dict__?15:29
exarkun#python might be a better channel15:30
tverwaesmina is not defined15:30
tverwaesyeah.. sorry for that :)15:30
exarkunimport it.15:30
tverwaeso..k.. :)15:31
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exarkunSo there's already an implementation of os.execve.16:01
exarkunIt's disabled though.  "work in progress".16:01
exarkunIt has a test too.  Not a great one, but an okay one.16:02
xorAxAxfor very slow values of progress :)16:02
exarkunIf I enable the function, the test passes.16:02
exarkunSo is it actually a really terrible test?  Or does execve really work?16:02
xorAxAxmaybe blame the skip line and ask the author? :)16:02
exarkunwho's afa?16:03
xorAxAxfinger him16:03
exarkunuh, right16:03
xorAxAxah, amaury16:04
exarkunlike there are computers on the internet that still running finger daemons16:04
xorAxAxno, but finger runs locally as well :)16:04
exarkunokay he's not here now what :)16:04
xorAxAxgood question. does the log message give away any reasons16:04
exarkunit talks about win3216:05
exarkunbut it doesn't mention execve specifically16:05
xorAxAxthen execve should only be registered on windows16:05
exarkunit's registered with a hasattr() check16:06
exarkunit was disabled in a different revision as the test was skipped though16:06
exarkunarigato disabled the registration16:07
exarkunarigato: awake yet? :)16:07
exarkunAppTest* means what, again?16:08
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xorAxAxexarkun: that it is executed on top of py.py16:08
xorAxAx(i.e. the pypy interpreter)16:08
exarkunbut.. untranslated?16:09
xorAxAxyes, it doesnt translate16:09
exarkunan AppTest which calls os.execve doesn't actually test that pypy can ffi to execve(2) correctly16:09
exarkunit just tests that the rpython wrapper around the ffi call works?  And then calls CPython's execve function?16:10
xorAxAxexarkun: that might be the case, in some cases it falls back to cpython, yes. you can try with a raise in the code16:10
exarkunif I put a raise in pypy.module.posix.interp_posix.execve right before the os.execve call, it gets raised16:14
exarkuna translation fails with Exception: unexpected prebuilt constant: <built-in function execve>, which means there is no ffi glue for execve, at least not registered, right?16:14
exarkunand indeed I see execv but not execve in ll_os.py16:15
exarkunoops, and test_ll_os has no test for execv16:16
xorAxAxso its missing :)16:19
exarkunI guess I have some idea of what needs to be done now.  Thanks for the help.16:21
xorAxAxhmm, there is some magic involved here16:22
xorAxAxdepending on the OS, execve might be even faked in some .py module from the stdlib i think16:22
exarkunI'm going to ignore windows :)16:22
xorAxAxhmm, nop16:22
exarkunos.py is really disgusting :(16:23
exarkunhow do I get stdout for a test with py.test?16:24
xorAxAx(if you mean "stdout while testing"16:24
xorAxAxand you also get it if it fails i think16:24
exarkunyea, thanks16:24
exarkunindeed, but that's so much extra work :)16:24
exarkunare there any path manipulation apis in pypy or pylib?16:29
xorAxAxyes, on which level?16:30
exarkunhigh? :)16:30
exarkunsomething like FilePath(__file__).sibling('foo.py') would be nice16:30
xorAxAxwell, do you need it in normal python code or a test?16:30
exarkunah, normal python is fine16:30
xorAxAxpy.path.local etc.16:30
exarkunoh cool16:46
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black_13does stackless have a coroutine or does it implement coroutines as tasklets?16:49
arigatoblack_13: Stackless Python implements tasklets only.  PyPy's stackless is based on a choice of coroutines, greenlets or tasklets16:50
arigatoat the moment tasklets are expressed on top of coroutines but that's not essential and will eventually be fixed for better performance16:51
black_13do you mean that stackless python and python will unify at some point16:51
arigatoby Stackless Python I mean www.stackless.com16:52
arigatoPyPy has the same features16:52
arigatothe standard CPython has no coroutine nor tasklets16:52
arigatoand is unlikely to ever have16:52
arigatodunno where you got the impression that CPython and Stackless Python would unify - that idea has been rejected long ago16:53
xorAxAxwhich reminds me at the callback-triggers-stack-unwind-issue :)16:53
exarkunis {str: str} even close to a valid element in the arg list extdef() takes?16:54
arigatoexarkun: I think so, yes16:55
exarkunI wonder where my dict is going then16:55
black_13arigato, i was just asking a question 16:56
arigatoblack_13: sorry, maybe I was unclear then16:57
black_13arigato, really what i am trying to understand how coroutines work and if they are usefull in implementing state machines16:57
arigatocoroutines are basically "better generators"16:58
black_13arigato, i have been reading wikipedia artictles (which may or may not be valid) that coroutines lead to better implementation of state machines16:58
exarkuncoroutines are the opposite of explicit state machines16:58
exarkunthey let you express state in stack frames and function locals16:58
arigatoyes, it seems to me that coroutines are useful precisely because you can solve problems with them without having to write state machines16:59
black_13exarkun, hum can you think of an example i am only recently doing python16:59
exarkunblack_13: have you used generators in python?16:59
black_13exarkun, i have only used python with wxpython to for small utility apps17:00
black_13kind of fast mfc17:00
black_13remember MFC17:00
black_13i found that i can write small throw away apps very quickly17:02
black_13with python17:02
exarkunblack_13: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0255/ discusses python generators, how and why you might use them17:03
black_13hey i have seen a lot of these "pep" does what does pep stand for17:03
exarkunblack_13: much of the information applies to coroutines as well, since as arigato mentioned, coroutines are basically better generators.17:03
black_13does the yield idea apply to a tasklet17:04
black_13from what i have seen you create a tasklet with a function 17:04
black_13similar to O/S thread has a thread function/proc17:05
Action: arigato discovers /dev/full17:05
black_13full or null?17:05
black_13really never heard of that none17:05
black_13what is full17:05
arigatoa pseudo-device that pretends to be full... simply17:06
arigatoblack_13: you should try to write small examples of generators, first17:06
black_13maybe your correctly17:06
black_13right i mean17:06
arigatotasklets are a slightly different (older) concept from Stackless Python17:06
arigatotasklets are a bit more like microthreads17:07
arigatogenerators are also a bit like microthreads, but with language syntax that make them look different17:07
black_13going back to the state machine17:07
black_13i have seen in C/C++ that state machine come in variety of table driven ideas17:08
black_13or pointers to state objects (an i knowyou stated previous about a stack frame) but ...17:09
black_13well i dont full understand the stack frame ... 17:09
arigatostate machines like this are not something you need every day 17:09
arigatothey only make sense in specific contexts, like writing a regular expression engine17:10
black_13no i dont need that17:10
arigatofor games, they are typically two approaches (not state machines):17:10
black_13arigato, please tell17:10
arigato"regular" object-oriented programming, where you store each entity's state as attributes of the object17:10
arigatoor a version that uses generators17:11
black_13i totally get tat17:11
arigatowhere an entity's behavior progresses by running a generator (or some other kind of microthread) dedicated to that entity17:11
black_13i have seen the stackless tutorial take that approache where the state is contained in an object17:11
Action: arigato -> away17:12
black_13arigato, http://members.verizon.net/olsongt/stackless/why_stackless.html this talks about that17:12
black_13arigato, still here? ( you said away)17:13
arigatoabout to leave :-)17:14
arigatosorry, talk to you later17:14
black_13when are you on next?17:14
arigatoI'm often around, but not at fixed hours17:15
arigatowill be around tomorrow, European time17:15
black_13well take care thanks for the pointers17:15
black_13i am central us17:16
black_13what time where you are at?17:16
arigatoit's evening, 6pm17:16
arigatosee you!17:17
black_13later then17:17
black_13i wonder can yield be combined with a tasklet?17:17
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exarkunshould str2charp really accept strings with \0 in them?17:31
xorAxAxif you mean it should check that?17:34
xorAxAxmakes some sense17:35
xorAxAxeven though it couldnt use memcpy then17:35
exarkundoes it use memcpy now?  it looks like a for loop17:36
xorAxAxno, it doesnt17:37
xorAxAxpypy has a raw_memcopy function17:38
xorAxAxthat could be used17:38
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haskelltoneexarkun - r49252 - llimpl for os.execve18:13
exarkundebug: OperationError:18:17
exarkundebug:  operror-type: AttributeError18:17
exarkundebug:  operror-value: 'module' object has no attribute 'name'18:17
exarkundid I do that?18:17
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exarkunfijal: 'lo18:18
fijalexarkun: hi18:18
xorAxAxexarkun: you need to use a makefile target that defines enough debug flags and try again18:24
haskelltoneniko - r49253 - update the debug info we print out: now the line number corresponds to the line in the file, and we emit local variable debug information with the name of the variable from the rpython source.  this h18:24
xorAxAxthen you will see where the exception comes from18:26
xorAxAxexarkun: was that a normal pypy-c?18:29
exarkunwhat does normal mean18:30
xorAxAxignore that word :)18:30
xorAxAxi guess you tried to compile pypy with your changes and then it crashed at startup?18:30
exarkunit doesn't crash at startup18:31
exarkunI didn't think it crashed at all, but now that you mention that, I suspect it could be the child process which is crashing18:31
exarkunand the stderr passing through18:31
xorAxAxyep, thats it18:32
xorAxAxthe above lines are generated by the outer most rpython level exception handler18:32
xorAxAxhmm, its weird that its not catched18:32
xorAxAxbecause it is an operror which is the wrapper for interp-exceptions18:33
xorAxAxexarkun: what are you executing?18:35
exarkunthe tests in twisted.test.test_process18:36
exarkunso it's a bit annoying to try to narrow down18:36
exarkunparticularly since stderr and stdout are not synchronized18:36
exarkunoh hey, there it is again18:37
exarkunin a nice convenient place too18:37
exarkunwoah, hm18:38
exarkunah, hm18:38
exarkunit might be pty related18:38
xorAxAxyou can synchronize them by using the same stream :)18:38
exarkunxorAxAx: well yea, like I said, annoying :)18:39
exarkunit is happening after the test code in the child process finishes, I think18:39
exarkunat least, if it causes the interpreter to exit, it must be18:40
exarkunsince the test code is running18:40
exarkunthis test fails http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/browser/trunk/twisted/test/test_process.py#L167518:40
exarkunhttp://twistedmatrix.com/trac/browser/trunk/twisted/test/process_tty.py is the child process it runs18:41
exarkuninstead of getting "hello world!\r\nhello world!\r\n"18:41
exarkunoh, crud18:41
exarkunno, I'm wrong, the code isn't running at all18:42
exarkunhmm, maybe something environment related18:44
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xorAxAxPYTHONSTARTUP maybe? :)18:45
exarkunor maybe it's just -u18:45
xorAxAxor -u :)18:45
exarkunyea okay I guess that's it18:45
exarkunnot implemented at all?  or..?18:45
xorAxAxit is, but it was broken18:46
xorAxAxand it doesnt to be tested18:46
xorAxAxits app_main.py in translator/goal18:47
xorAxAxand the os in there is just christians nanos18:47
xorAxAxexarkun: hmm, there is a test that doesnt fail, hmm19:01
exarkunit seems like testing anything in app_main would be pretty difficult19:01
exarkunat least, I have no idea what the execution context is actually like for that code19:01
exarkunso I don't know how you'd set up a test19:02
xorAxAxthere is a test19:02
xorAxAxtest2/test_app_main 19:02
exarkunbut if it passes, it must not be a valid test ;)19:02
xorAxAxthere is an os import at the bottom19:03
Action: xorAxAx has an idea19:06
haskelltoneniko - r49254 - fix math.modf in the jvm: 1. the code in PyPy.java was slightly wrong 2. the static signature cannot reference generated objects, so when they are returned we must use jObject instead and insert a dow19:06
haskelltoneniko - r49255 - use the new is_generated() test in InterlinkFunction to determine when the rewrite the signature to use Object, since it applies there as well -- before we just checked if the type was a reference typ19:10
Action: xorAxAx fixes it19:16
xorAxAxexarkun: fixed19:22
haskelltonexoraxax - r49256 - app_main does not use the normal os module now anymore. Nanos can expose its module even in scenarios without a pypy interpreter - this makes app_main testable again. This should fix the broken -u opt19:22
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haskelltonexoraxax - r49257 - I think these files are not needed anymore.19:49
xorAxAx        if not irreg:19:52
xorAxAx            self.log.info("All exceptblocks seem sane")19:52
xorAxAxand no else case ...19:52
xorAxAxi guess nobody would spot that a line would be missing in case of a problem19:52
haskelltonexoraxax - r49258 - Remove two status messages in the regular code path.19:56
fijalxorAxAx: I would19:59
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