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[00:33] <senra> hi, could anybody here possibly tell me how to contact Laura Creighton via chat ?
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[00:42] <cfbolz> senra: She's in #pypy (here) quite regularly
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[00:43] <cfbolz> hi christian!
[00:43] <senra> cfbolz: Thanks I'll try tomorrow.
[00:43] <stakkars> hi Carl Friedrich!
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[00:44] <stakkars> I've been in "closure" whole day. Now we can use print and friends from all of flowspace!
[00:44] <cfbolz> oh, cool!
[00:45] <stakkars> actually, I think we can do this with everything that pyopcode currently implements by "applevel".
[00:46] <stakkars> I also found a way to let sys behave as expected, *always*
[00:46] <cfbolz> sorry, don't know enough about pyopcode
[00:47] <stakkars> the problem is that all printXXX stuff is implemented at app-level.
[00:47] <cfbolz> ok, got that
[00:47] <cfbolz> via some hooks
[00:47] <cfbolz> ?
[00:48] <stakkars> when we are flowing print-alike stuff, we need to give a native implementation.
[00:49] <stakkars> I'm doing that -- by plumbing in simple_call's to exactly the applevel functions which do it.
[00:49] <cfbolz> ah.
[00:49] <cfbolz> but those could be not RPython, right?
[00:49] <stakkars> They happen to be completrely RPython.
[00:50] <cfbolz> If they weren't this wouldn't work because it would confuse the annotator, right?
[00:50] <stakkars> yessir
[00:50] <stakkars> it struck be like an explosion.
[00:51] <cfbolz> :-)
[00:51] <stakkars> I took the implementation of pyopcode and copied it into specialcase.
[00:51] <cfbolz> and worked the whole day on it?
[00:51] <stakkars> Then I redirected the special calls for printing to that, and made them call back into simple_call.
[00:52] <stakkars> yes, almost.
[00:52] <cfbolz> well, you missed all the fun issue discussions
[00:52] <stakkars> whoops?
[00:52] <stakkars> I needed to be alone, as it is very often!
[00:52] <cfbolz> no problem. I wasn't accusing you of anything :-)
[00:53] <stakkars> what did I miss? (well, I can read it)
[00:53] <cfbolz> there were some issues we didn't discuss in depth because of you missing
[00:53] <stakkars> what I wanted to tell you -- I'm very very happy with this solution
[00:54] <cfbolz> yes, it sounds really clean (as far as I can judge that)
[00:54] <stakkars> some ranting about my coding style I fear
[00:54] <stakkars> :-))
[00:55] Action: stakkars reading blogs
[01:00] <stakkars> hello, guys!
[01:00] <cfbolz> I'm still there :-)
[01:00] <stakkars> yes,I was away, sitting in a cafe' allday!
[01:01] <stakkars> please assign to me whatever you see fit.
[01:01] <cfbolz> I think you allready got everything we saw fit
[01:02] <stakkars> the issue of printing has been solved, and I have learned *A LOT*
[01:02] <cfbolz> this being the "windows compatibility" issue?
[01:02] <stakkars> I also will integrate exceptions interpleveling.
[01:03] <stakkars> cfbolz: yes, that's completely resolved.
[01:03] <stakkars> I special-cased sys imports.
[01:03] <cfbolz> Ok. I'll mark it as such?
[01:03] <stakkars> mark what?
[01:03] <cfbolz> the issue as resolved
[01:04] <stakkars> yes
[01:04] <stakkars> the point is: I'm working on a bigger solution.
[01:04] <stakkars> It is not just the sys imports locally in a function.
[01:05] <stakkars> What I'm doing is to set up special cases for pseudo-Constant()s, which are not really constant.
[01:06] <stakkars> I'm cheating flowspace to produce a special call for these, which makes them into SomeObject()
[01:06] <stakkars> thant ensures that these objects are evaluated as late as possible, and it should work with
[01:06] <stakkars> a global "import sys". !!!
[01:07] <cfbolz> cool. So you can just use sys in the regular way?
[01:07] <stakkars> yes!
[01:07] <stakkars> the trick is to examine getattr and setattr for Constant(sys)
[01:08] <stakkars> and if it is so, then I add an instruction of "simple_call, Constant(unspecialize), arg)"
[01:09] <stakkars> this call is built in a way that the specializer is unable to take any type info,
[01:09] <cfbolz> and just leaves the calls to the CPython API?
[01:09] <stakkars> and so, all attribute access will be done at run-time.Phew
[01:09] <stakkars> exactly
[01:09] <cfbolz> ok. I think I got it.
[01:10] <cfbolz> I'm going to bed now. See you tommorrow!
[01:10] <stakkars> unspecialize is currently a simplefunction that tries to do the impossible
[01:10] <stakkars> if id(0) is id(None):
[01:10] <stakkars> return obj
[01:10] <stakkars> that makes the annotator give up.
[01:11] <stakkars> good night
[01:11] <cfbolz> bye
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[15:18] <cfbolz> hi all!
[15:18] <hpk> cfbolz: hi carl!
[15:18] <hpk> there is not much of "all" here, i guess
[15:19] Action: hpk is happily creating yet more issues
[15:19] <cfbolz> what? nobody else is working?
[15:19] <hpk> no clue
[15:19] <hpk> we usually don't report to each other low-level details :-)
[15:20] <cfbolz> well, now is not usually :-)
[15:20] <hpk> good point :-)
[15:20] <hpk> i guess christian, armin and samuele chickened out to work on translation
[15:21] <hpk> let's complain a bit then so they can read it in the logs :-)
[15:22] <cfbolz> well, translation is probably more fun. But not two days before a release.
[15:22] <hpk> actually i think that everybody thinks now that the issues are well resolvable before friday
[15:22] <hpk> and rests a bit
[15:23] <cfbolz> I understand. I'm not doing too much myself :-)
[15:23] <hpk> although i wouldn't mind getting done earlier instead of postponing to thursday night :-)
[15:24] <cfbolz> do you think the tracing will change before fryday?
[15:27] Action: hpk just "finished" module documentation, uff, took almost the whole day so far
[15:27] <hpk> which tracing do you mean, the space or the mechanism?
[15:28] <cfbolz> I mean the output if you do __pytrace__ = 1
[15:28] <cfbolz> what richard promised to do
[15:28] <hpk> ok, the space then
[15:28] <hpk> i think richard wants to work a bit on it
[15:29] <cfbolz> ok. Then I have to change that bit in getting_started. Otherwise I think I done with it (modulo errors)
[15:30] <hpk> set the issue to testing
[15:30] <cfbolz> ok.
[15:30] <cfbolz> I find you're module docs very interesting: I didn't know anything about it yet.
[15:31] <hpk> i actually had to fix a couple of stuff to make the documentation correct :-)
[15:31] <cfbolz> That's another good part about writing docs
[15:40] <cfbolz> exactly when on fryday will the release be made? when everythings done?
[15:41] <cfbolz> s/fryday/friday
[15:42] <hpk> i guess so
[15:43] <hpk> afternoon i guess
[15:43] <cfbolz> 'kay
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[15:45] <cfbolz> hi!
[15:46] <hpk> stakkars: hi chris
[15:46] Action: hpk -> sun
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[15:46] <stakkars> hi!
[15:48] <cfbolz> I'm going. bye
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[15:48] <stakkars> pedronis: I managed to get print to work in flowspace.
[15:49] <stakkars> after all, it was verysimple,and I'm wondering why we needed so long to do it.
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----- silence for 17 minutes ----- [18:00] <arigo> hi
[18:01] <arigo> what about some kind of 'demo' directory, for sharedref.py and some of our goal/*.py ?
[18:02] <arigo> maybe also containing scripts that call the translator and show nice flow graphs?
[18:07] Action: arigo suggests pypy/bin/demo/
[18:11] <hpk> probably more a toplevel demo directory, no?
[18:11] <hpk> pedronis: sorry, i am still not understanding: so we should only comment and not modify the release-announcement?
[18:11] <pedronis> hpk: review, edit whatever
[18:12] <hpk> ok, fine
[18:12] <arigo> hpk: for now we'll have executable demo files, mostly
[18:13] <arigo> but I don't mind pypy/demo/, probably better in the long run.
[18:13] <hpk> i thought dist/demo
[18:13] <arigo> ah
[18:13] <arigo> makes sense too
[18:13] <arigo> ok.
[18:15] Action: pedronis has a bit of head-ache
[18:16] Action: hpk would like to see if we can reuse arigo's upcoming mission-statement in the release announcement
[18:16] Action: arigo didn't start thinking about it so far
[18:16] <hpk> regarding release-0.6: i think we should mention that pypy 0.6 has much improved documentation at this point
[18:17] <hpk> and hint at the already-flexibility-showing points we have in getting-started
[18:18] <pedronis> there are hints at thunks and tracing, they may need more underlining
[18:19] <pedronis> it's also a matter the an announcemnt is quite long as it is
[18:25] <hpk> it could use sub-headers
[18:26] <hpk> http://codespeak.net/pypy/index.cgi?doc/release-0.6.html
[18:26] <hpk> is a way to access the web-page version already
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[19:04] <hpk> do we explain anywhere what 'faking' is?
[19:04] <arigo> good question
[19:07] Action: hpk is currently annotating the directory structure and creating issues as he goes :-)
[19:08] <arigo> I'm about to check in the reorganisation of issue47
[19:09] <hpk> i shouldn't be affected much
[19:14] Action: arigo fixing getting_started for the new layout
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[19:18] <cfbolz> arigo: do you want a.specialize not to be mentioned at all?
[19:18] <cfbolz> because it is in getting_started, too
[19:23] <arigo> right, I don't know exactly
[19:24] <hpk> getting consistent documentation is not much easier than getting consistent code actually :-)
[19:24] <arigo> no, I think getting_started.txt is fine
[19:24] <arigo> let's re-add a.specialize() to the docstring :-)
[19:24] <cfbolz> yes, I think so too. It's cool to see the int_add's
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[20:29] <hpk> arigo: you broke revreport.py
[20:30] <hpk> hum, or is it a damn pyc file? lemme check
[20:30] <arigo> "interpreter/py.pyc"
[20:30] <hpk> i guess so
[20:30] <arigo> if we had a way to remove that one specifically in an "svn up" it would be great
[20:31] <hpk> i often wished for a local (python)-post-process script for svn-up
----- silence for 17 minutes ----- [20:48] <arigo> guess what I find in pypy.tool.opcode?
[20:48] <arigo> IEXEC_THROW, END_IEXEC, SETUP_IEXEC
[20:52] <hpk> upsie
[20:52] <hpk> on codespeak i guess
[20:53] <hpk> maybe i should implement them for PyPy to be done with that :-)
[20:53] <arigo> :-)
[20:53] <hpk> could be a use case for a flexible parser, actually
[20:54] <hpk> basically we could think about having a nice way to have various PEP 340 implementations
[20:54] <hpk> because that is something that is hard to do in CPython just so
[20:54] <hpk> would be a pretty cool sprint topic actually
[20:54] <hpk> (if the parser were far enough)
[20:55] Action: hpk is proud of: http://codespeak.net/pypy/index.cgi?doc/coding-guide.html#annotated-directory-structure-of-pypy
[20:55] <hpk> it looks like a simple thing but took me forever :-)
[20:56] <arigo> a directory verview :-)
[20:57] <arigo> it looks just great
[20:58] <hpk> i was thinking of linking this or even putting this in getting-started
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[21:00] <arigo> yes, I believe it would make more sense in getting_started
[21:00] <arigo> this said, "Annotated" has become a reserved keyword in PyPy :-)
[21:00] <hpk> hehe
[21:01] Action: hpk jumps in thinking: we should probably have an intermediate milestone M0.7 for EuroPython
[21:02] <hpk> aleale: you could help tomorrow if you started reading all documentation once we think we are basically finished :-)
[21:02] Action: hpk is getting even more jumpy
[21:12] <aleale> I am already reading it - just hard to keep up with the changes
[21:12] <hpk> yes, that's why i was suggesting that you read it when we are finished
[21:12] <hpk> you then have a fresh view
[21:12] <aleale> Ok
[21:13] <hpk> there are still some codecs related problems in the testreport i think
[21:13] <hpk> (linked from the 'doc' page)
[21:13] <aleale> Do you have time for a technical questions
[21:13] <hpk> sure (although i am currently busy checking stuff in before someone else commits :-)
[21:13] <aleale> regarding integrating unicode and codecs module
[21:15] <hpk> hua, i defer to arigo :-)
[21:15] <aleale> It seems that both me and arre is relying on each other to implement the basics of unichr and unicode
[21:16] <aleale> so when trying to merge I end up in endless recursions
[21:17] <aleale> by calling unichr -> which calls unicode -> encode -> which uses unichr
[21:18] <arigo> it's probably a question of level
[21:19] <arigo> there is no avoiding to use unichr() at interp-level, ultimately
[21:19] <pedronis> unichr should be a primitive and not call unicode btw
[21:20] <pedronis> yes, at interp level unichr is probably required
[21:20] <pedronis> but it's something the target should supply
[21:20] <aleale> target?
[21:21] <hpk> translation target i guess
[21:23] <hpk> pedronis: i'd try to avoid ReST-links as much as possible (in favour of plain http-links) for the release-0.6 document
[21:23] <pedronis> hpk: right
[21:24] <pedronis> I think arre implentation uses 1 unicode char as the primitive repr elements, these and a way to convert an integer to such a thing needs to be supplied
[21:25] <pedronis> by the translation target
[21:26] <aleale> unichr is defined in /builtin/app_misc.
[21:27] <aleale> How does unichr get information from the translation target
[21:27] <pedronis> that's the app-level unichr
[21:27] <aleale> Is this a necessary dependency?
[21:27] <pedronis> I was talking about the interp-level one
[21:28] <pedronis> it depends, if the final platform has a preferred way of representing unicode code-points the abstraction makes sense
[21:29] <hpk> arigo: was it on purpose that you indented "the py.py interpreter" in getting-started?
[21:30] <pedronis> the implementation in app_misc of unichr is not that much sane
[21:30] <arigo> it was on purpose that I did not dedent it, yes
[21:31] <arigo> it used to be a numbered list, so it was indented already
[21:31] <pedronis> it should probaly be implemented at app-level
[21:31] <pedronis> sorry interp-level
[21:32] <pedronis> this would remove the cirucularity too
[21:32] <pedronis> with encodings
[21:39] <hpk> arigo: you removed example_pytest.py instead of copying it to tool/pytest ?
[21:40] <arigo> yes, though I wasn't too sure about that
[21:40] <hpk> it's a good way to see if reporting of interp/app level tests works
[21:40] <arigo> ah
[21:40] <hpk> should be called pypy_test_demo.py or something
[21:41] <arigo> ok, bringing it back under that name...
[21:41] <hpk> pypy_test_failure_demo.py
[21:41] <hpk> even while you are at it
[21:42] <hpk> arigo: indentation: it doesn't look sensible in my browser (it's all italics)
[21:42] <arigo> oh, ok
[21:44] <arigo> sorry about example_pytest, I thought it was an old demo for how to write tests -- didn't realize they were all failing ones.
[21:44] <hpk> np
[21:44] <hpk> it's not that i am personally related to that file item somewhere in svn's revision tree :-)
[21:45] <hpk> hey, LLVM got a AMD64 backend!
[21:46] Action: hpk is reading the LLVM 1.5 announcement
[21:48] <hpk> it also seems to have a powerpc backend ...
[21:49] <hpk> the changenotes look pretty impressive
[21:49] <arigo> what exactly is translator/test/run_snippet.py ?
[21:51] <hpk> some arcane code that can go i think
[21:52] Action: hpk wishes for a characterlevel blame command
----- silence for 18 minutes ----- [22:10] <hpk> pedronis: i'd like to do some refactoring of release-0.6 at some point, probably tomorrow, if you don't mind
[22:11] <hpk> arigo: do you mind if i hack a bit on getting-started regarding indentation and link cleanup?
[22:11] <arigo> not at all
[22:11] <pedronis> hpk: that's ok
[22:13] <hpk> pedronis: i am probably going to try to beef it up a bit (but i'll try to hard not to raise wrong expectations)
[22:14] <pedronis> hpk: I see, remember that it is already quite long and people glaze over long announcement
[22:14] <hpk> pedronis: yes
[22:22] <arigo> grumble! pyc files.
[22:26] <arigo> we should patch the svn client to recognize
[22:26] <arigo> svn:kill *.pyc
[22:26] <arigo> properties
[22:26] <hpk> py.svn up ?
[22:26] <arigo> a variant of svn:ignore, more aggressive
[22:29] <arigo> if I had suggested a patch to CPython to disable all pyc file handling,
[22:29] <arigo> would you have answered: py.python ?
[22:29] <arigo> :-)
[22:30] <mwh> arigo: delete what you like
[22:30] <arigo> hi :-) thanks :-)
[22:31] <hpk> arigo: hehe, i was actually thinking of turning 'py' into a runner of python programs that can e.g. just have 'def main' among other niceties <hpk ducks and runs>
[22:31] <mwh> my email has been rather screwy of late
[22:31] <arigo> hpk: yes, and of course I was thinking of a site.py that inserts a custom import hook that completely replaces the built-in one <arigo ducks and run in the opposite direction>
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----- silence for 18 minutes ----- [23:39] Nick change: hpk -> hpk_away
[00:00] --- Thu May 19 2005