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[11:08] <arigo> hi !
[11:08] <hpk> arigo: hi armin
[11:08] <hpk> (!)
[11:08] <hpk> how was the conf?
[11:08] <arigo> great!
[11:09] <hpk> hey, that sounds good
[11:09] <hpk> are you in the mood to tell a bit?
[11:10] <arigo> as in other years, Python programmers were not as numerous as C++ guys
[11:10] <arigo> Java seems to get less interest, though.
[11:10] <arigo> Python had a whole track (out of 5 in parallel)
[11:11] <arigo> it was interesting to observe some category of C++ people
[11:11] <arigo> for example, when they are talking about the web site of the ACCU
[11:11] <arigo> which is -- of course -- scripted in custom C++ code :-)
[11:12] <arigo> basically, they agree that C++ is a bit tedious but so much safer than all these scripting languages
[11:12] <arigo> some people's point of view is that you get to try scripting languages for a while and they are ok, but at some point when you're a real programmer you'll return to C++
[11:13] <hpk> oh
[11:13] <arigo> but anyway, there was no "open" confrontation, it was all very friendly
[11:13] <hpk> hehe, i thought one would return to assembler if being a real man
[11:14] <arigo> well it's not (type)safe, is it? :-)
[11:14] <hpk> how was pypy perceived?
[11:14] <arigo> perceived by a small audiance :-)
[11:14] <arigo> the last day (Saturday) people drift off
[11:14] <hpk> i imagine
[11:15] <arigo> but the thin audiance received it well, and there was a couple of important reactions
[11:15] <arigo> e.,g. there was the Python guy of Nokia
[11:15] <hpk> nice
[11:15] <arigo> (he had a nice talk with a really good slice, an arguments-and-counter-arguments of strong typists vs scripting guys)
[11:16] <hpk> oh
[11:16] <hpk> any particular reaction to pypy from him?
[11:16] <arigo> well he's interested but basically CPython works fine on Nokia's phones
[11:16] <arigo> he'll follow PyPy, though
[11:17] <arigo> I gave him the pygame presentation files, and he said he had pygame installed already -- because he looked at the psyco presentation at some point ;-)
[11:18] <hpk> :^)
[11:18] <arigo> there is also a BBC guy, Michael Sparks, which is quite interested
[11:18] <arigo> s/which/who
[11:18] <hpk> i talked to him at EuroFoo at some length about PyPy :-)
[11:18] <arigo> :-)
[11:19] <arigo> Laura wanted to drag him to a sprint, but instead he said it would be very easy to host a sprint at the BBC :-)
[11:19] <hpk> sounds good, like in may? :-)
[11:19] <arigo> hum, no
[11:19] <arigo> at least we didn't talk specific dates,
[11:20] <hpk> i didn'T expect so
[11:20] <hpk> i guess apart from may we have plans for all of the year already
[11:20] <arigo> rough plans
[11:20] <hpk> sure, nothing definite yet (except from G-borg)
[11:20] <arigo> yes
[11:22] <arigo> finally, there was a Roma guy, a physicist that knows Alex Martelli...
[11:22] <arigo> Michele Simionato
[11:22] <hpk> i have heard his name a couple of times already
[11:24] <arigo> he's interested in PyPy mostly from the theoretical point of view
[11:24] <arigo> -- it's true that we are the only such theoretical project to be a bit known in Python, apart from specialized domains like SciPy
[11:32] <arigo> unrelated: do you have a minute some time to help me moving Psyco to codespeak? I'd like to rename a directory in the CVS tree :-)
[11:33] <hpk> :-)
[11:33] <hpk> sure
[11:33] <hpk> do you want to do the cvs2svn conversion yourself?
[11:34] <arigo> I guess so
[11:35] <arigo> I tried it some time ago, but I think there are some options we can choose
[11:36] Action: hpk looks up the latest cvs2svn version ...
[11:38] <hpk> svn co http://svn.collab.net/repos/cvs2svn/trunk/ cvs2svn-trunk
[11:39] <hpk> do you have the psyco cvs somewhere on codesepak?
[11:39] <arigo> I can put it there
[11:39] <arigo> ~arigo/psyco-cvsroot.tar.bz2
[11:41] <hpk> i am in -x hpk/hpk and play a bit
[11:47] <hpk> arigo: i wonder if the cvs-committers will be retained in svn blame
[12:02] <hpk> arigo: can you 'svn mkdir http://codespeak.net/svn/psyco' ?
[12:03] <arigo> done
----- silence for 22 minutes ----- [12:25] <hpk> arigo: may i ask something regarding greenlets in the screen session?
[12:25] <arigo> sure
----- silence for 19 minutes ----- [12:44] <hpk> arigo: i wrote a note on screen
[12:45] <arigo> oups?
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[13:15] <cfbolz> hi all!
[13:15] <arigo> hi!
[13:16] <cfbolz> I'm nearly done with PBC support.
[13:16] <arigo> nice
[13:16] <cfbolz> I'm a bit confused though
[13:17] <cfbolz> I'm still not quite sure which instances becom PBCs
[13:17] <cfbolz> and not SomeInstances
[13:17] <arigo> I'm confused too, it changed too often
[13:18] <arigo> I believe that user-defined instances need to have a _freeze_() method to become PBCs
[13:19] <arigo> the exact logic is a bit obscure, but can be found in bookkeeper.immutablevalue()
[13:19] <cfbolz> I thought so, too.
[13:19] <cfbolz> what about the following in snippet:
[13:19] <cfbolz> class CallablePrebuiltConstant(object):
[13:19] <cfbolz> def __call__(self):
[13:19] <cfbolz> return 42
[13:19] <arigo> um.
[13:19] <cfbolz> :-)
[13:19] <arigo> I believe that we no longer need to support __call__()
[13:19] <cfbolz> Good.
[13:20] <cfbolz> I don't support it yet.
[13:20] <cfbolz> Something completely different: When exactly will the sprint in Goetheborg be?
[13:21] <cfbolz> I need to plan a bit in advance
[13:21] <arigo> after the conference
[13:21] <arigo> starts right after the conference and up to the 7th if I remember correctly.
[13:21] <cfbolz> ok. Then my lastest information is correct. Good.
[13:22] <cfbolz> I'm coming.
[13:22] <arigo> Great!
[13:23] <arigo> Looking forward to see you.
[13:23] <cfbolz> I'm pretty excited myself :-)
[13:24] <arigo> :-)
[13:24] <cfbolz> Where are you all staying?
[13:24] <arigo> I will live there myself
[13:24] <arigo> I'm flying to Goteborg next friday and staying there.
[13:25] <cfbolz> ah. Cool.
[13:25] <arigo> last year there were good arrangements
[13:25] <arigo> I think that more information about it will show up when the conference comes a bit closer,
[13:25] <arigo> but basically you can have a room to share with other sprinters
[13:26] <cfbolz> Well, you can allready order a room when registering.
[13:26] <arigo> ah, ok
[13:27] <arigo> I expect most of the sprinters (and lots of conference attendees too) will be there. It's a very nice place.
[13:27] <cfbolz> Good. Then I'll just order a room when I register for the conference.
[13:28] <arigo> that's what I'd definitely recommend.
----- silence for 25 minutes ----- [13:53] <cfbolz> ouch. targetpypy1 fails because of recursive dependencies between the representations.
[13:53] <cfbolz> I mean targetpypy1 with llvm.
[13:53] <arigo> ah, yes, I see
[13:54] <cfbolz> W_Object needs StdObjSpace needs W_TypeObject needs W_Object
[13:54] <cfbolz> I guess I need to be lazier
[13:54] <arigo> yes, we had similar problems with genc and geninterp
[13:54] <cfbolz> What did you do?
[13:54] <arigo> it's not used yet, but for the upcoming parser module we will probably even need worse:
[13:55] <arigo> lists whose items are 3-tuples
[13:55] <arigo> the last item in the 3-tuple is itself a list of the same kind
[13:55] <cfbolz> does the annotator cope with that?
[13:55] <arigo> now, yes
[13:56] <arigo> (it's a recent slightly different fix that allows it to handle that too)
[13:56] <arigo> in genc we solved the dependency problem by being more lazy
[13:57] <cfbolz> Ok. Then I'll have to do something similar.
[13:57] <arigo> e.g. for a class we generate an empty (CPython) class object and populate it later
[13:57] <arigo> geninterp had various troubles, though
[13:57] <arigo> e.g. you need a fully initialized class object before you can instantiate it (for pbcs)
[13:57] <arigo> but the issues are probably slightly different in genllvm.
[13:58] <cfbolz> Yes. But I guess the solution is similar.
[13:59] <arigo> yes
[13:59] <cfbolz> Is there some code I could steal from genc?
[14:00] <cfbolz> For laziness, I mean
[14:01] <arigo> maybe not, but you can use the basic idea:
[14:01] <arigo> the classobj representation, as found in pyobjtype.nameof_classobj()
[14:02] <arigo> it defines an empty classobj (in real C that would be defining the type pointer-to-structure-T without defining the structure T itself)
[14:02] <arigo> and it registers a generator that will be enumerated later, that really defines the structure with its fields
[14:03] <cfbolz> when dies the enumeration happen?
[14:05] <arigo> I guess we'll need to change it, but now it's done once before each function body
[14:05] <arigo> it wouldn't work too well for prebuilt constants, though
[14:06] <cfbolz> Yes. I guess I have to find out what exactly the problem is in my case.
[14:07] <arigo> yes, I fear we might need at some point two methods, like "now I want the type ptr-to-T to be defined" and "now I need T itself to be defined"
[14:08] <cfbolz> That's exactly the problem the example above.
[14:08] <cfbolz> with
[14:09] <arigo> maybe you can simply force the lazy parts to be fully computed before generating a pbc.
[14:10] <cfbolz> hmm.
[14:10] <cfbolz> Yes, I guess I could do that.
[14:11] <cfbolz> Ok. Thanks for your help. I'm going offline again.
[14:11] <cfbolz> See you.
[14:12] <arigo> see you!
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----- silence for 35 minutes ----- [14:47] <hpk> arigo: i think we may want to focus a PyPy EU talk on backends
[14:48] <arigo> at EuroPython?
[14:48] <hpk> and we could ask Carl to talk a bit about the llvm one
[14:48] <hpk> yes
[14:48] <arigo> makes sense
[14:48] <hpk> like "we'll show which kinds of programs can be translated by PyPy/genc, PyPy/llvm etc.pp."
[14:50] <hpk> "and how you can use PyPy to generate a C-extension from pure python" :-)
[14:50] <arigo> yes
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[14:51] <hpk> btw, i recently rewrote the first parts of the coding-style.txt/RPython chapters
[14:51] <arigo> ok
[14:51] <hpk> it would be good to have a look at the exact restriction and which of them are true
[14:51] <hpk> especially some information regarding the new 'ovfchecked' is needed
[14:51] <arigo> yes, I guess so
[14:51] <arigo> right
[14:52] <hpk> i think the current stuff on integers is just wrong
[14:52] <hpk> (or old rather)
[14:52] <hpk> this chapter will be of primary interest to people wanting to write RPython code
[14:52] <arigo> makes sense (sorry, I'm running out of ways to agree :-)
[14:53] <hpk> :^)
[14:54] <cfbolz> I just read the logs. I think holgers idea about the Europython talk is good.
[14:55] <hpk> cfbolz: it's also good because then the rest of us will better understand what you are doing :-)
[14:56] <cfbolz> :-)
[14:56] <hpk> before the sprint, which makes double sense
[14:56] <cfbolz> right. It's not that sophisticated. Maybe I should write a bit of documentation after all.
[14:58] <hpk> arigo: actually i would suggest that you or pedronis write about integers in coding-style.txt
[14:58] <hpk> now you have the opportunity to disagree :-)
[14:59] <arigo> I wouldn't dare do that without Samuele, as we discussed so many suggestions
[14:59] <arigo> but ok
[15:00] <hpk> and maybe i should whip up a nice source-viewer today
[15:00] <hpk> i really would like references to classes and methods via anchors or whatever
[15:00] <cfbolz> btw: would it be possible (or rather: would it be reasonably easy) to write a transformation that transforms a ovfchecked op into ovf_op and removes some of the exception handling?
[15:00] <arigo> (I'm also working on the genc doc, but it isn't advancing much because I still don't know what memory model would be best)
[15:01] <arigo> cfbolz: yes, that's the idea, apart from removing the exception handling
[15:01] <arigo> how would ovf_op signal an overflow?
[15:02] <cfbolz> via an exception of course. but at the moment there is the full-fledged handling of exceptions:
[15:03] <arigo> oh, I see, sorry
[15:03] <cfbolz> We know that only a OverflowError is raised, so we can remove at least one block.
[15:04] <arigo> I think the annotator should know that; then the exception-handling would be automatically reduced
[15:05] <cfbolz> right
[15:06] <cfbolz> but then the transformation would probably be superfluous, since you can recognize that the op is overflowched by the following exception
[15:10] <arigo> actually I can't remember the details of ovfchecked()
[15:10] <arigo> I should look it up but right now I'm more thinking about lunch :-)
[15:10] <cfbolz> :-)
[15:11] <cfbolz> It's not that important.
[15:11] <cfbolz> bye
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